Huge is Too Small

[fladiv]

Is it just me of there is about no difference between Large and Huge map sizes?

In AC, Civ2 I always played on maps as big as possible, I hate short games. I wish to experience every game stage to its maximum, but expansion and exploration stage is too short on small maps..

So perhaps there is a map mod that allows for maps larger than Huge at about 1.5 ratio, with large continents and vast oceans between them. Or is there generic game restriction on map size?

[Junuxx]

Download Atlas Map Generator and make a Giant or Titan sized map
That is, if you have at least 2GB of RAM and a good video card. Otherwise these overhuge maps wont be very playable.

[DougM]

Re: Huge is Too Small

You can easily change the size of huge (if you have enough memory). It's in Civ4WorldInfo.xml (and sometimes overridden in specific map scripts, look and see if the particular map script you like has a getGridSize override function).

If you'd just like to play on a bigger map, try downloading my smartmap script. Huge on smartmap has twice the area of the ordinary huge map (but note that you'll need at least a gig of memory to play). Or use atlas.

On ordinary maps, huge is 32x20 = 640 4x4 plots.
On smartmap, huge is up to 1200 4x4 plots. So nearly twice as big. Maybe it will fit your requirement well, assuming you have the memory for it.

[DougM]

short followup

btw,
large = 26x16 (4x4plots) = 6656 plots
huge = 32x20 (4x4plots) = 10240 plots

huge/large area ratio: 1.53

sqrt(6656) ~= 81.58
sqrt(10240) ~= 101.19

ratio of square roots = 1.24

So there's only approximately 24% more space you're likely to get between civs, and that assumes you don't play with more civs on huge than on large.

If you played with the default # of players:
81.58/9 = 9.06
101.19/11 = 9.19

you wind up with basically no expected additional space between players.

All of which is made worse by the necessity of putting players on fair starting spots.

[CreepyD]

its funny I just got new processor / gfx card so decided to try a huge map (usually play small) - cant believe u think its too small!
I sent a caravel east from my island, 50 turns later, its still going! lol

glad I got it on islands otherwise wouldnt u need literally 100's of cities to keep up with the AI's?
or does it change land accordingly?
we only got room for about 10-14 cities on each island.

[rogerbacon]

Originally posted by CreepyD


glad I got it on islands otherwise wouldnt u need literally 100's of cities to keep up with the AI's?
or does it change land accordingly?
we only got room for about 10-14 cities on each island.

If you want to play on a large map, like I do, but you don't want to have to manage a lot of cities to stay competative you can change the minimum city distance from the default 2 to a larger number. I use 4 so cities are much farther apart. Also, this means that you don't have to worry about the AI making cities too close together and getting overlap.

Roger Bacon

[DougM]

Originally posted by CreepyD
its funny I just got new processor / gfx card so decided to try a huge map (usually play small) - cant believe u think its too small!
I sent a caravel east from my island, 50 turns later, its still going! lol

glad I got it on islands otherwise wouldnt u need literally 100's of cities to keep up with the AI's?
or does it change land accordingly?
we only got room for about 10-14 cities on each island.

The benefit of having more cities declines with the number of cities due to upkeep. Larger maps allow for more cities before severe upkeep kicks in, but you'll still quickly reach the point where founding additional cities is pointless.

[CreepyD]

ah sounds good
I like that city distance idea!
I did establish a city on a far island - instantly had 17 upkeep ouch.

[Willem]

Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by DougM
Maybe it will fit your requirement well, assuming you have the memory for it.

You need more than just memory to play larger maps. I have 1 gig but my system, Athlon 1700, can't really handle Large maps. Sometimes I can play without a crash, but most times I can't. Someone's going to need a very powerful computer to handle your Huge maps, that's for sure.

[DougM]

Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by Willem


You need more than just memory to play larger maps. I have 1 gig but my system, Athlon 1700, can't really handle Large maps. Sometimes I can play without a crash, but most times I can't. Someone's going to need a very powerful computer to handle your Huge maps, that's for sure.

There's really no excuse for their code to crash on a big map other than out of memory. I can load a huge map and play on it (somewhat painfully) with 1 gig. Hopefully the next patch will address some of this ridiculous memory usage. Maybe in the meantime I'll drop the size somewhat, and re-release if they fix this issue in the next patch.

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by DougM


There's really no excuse for their code to crash on a big map other than out of memory.

There's all kinds of things going on that would impact your processor on larger maps; unit pathfinding, trade route calculations etc. The amount of memory you have is just the tip of the iceberg.

[DougM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by Willem


There's all kinds of things going on that would impact your processor on larger maps; unit pathfinding, trade route calculations etc. The amount of memory you have is just the tip of the iceberg.

I understand there's more going on, but any scalable algorithm (and their algorithm does work on more than one map size) shouldn't magically stop working because the map is bigger. It's clear that their algorithms can handle the full range of sizes I provide: if I play on a 60x10 or a 10x60 map that works fine. At 60x40, though, it runs out of memory and crashes, which is fine, crashing due to out of memory is a pain to avoid in code.

The only other reason their code should be more likely to crash on a big map is the more intensive use of the CPU: it could cause overheating. But you'd almost have to make a deliberate effort to write code that would magically break on larger data structures for reasons other than memory exhaustion.

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by DougM
But you'd almost have to make a deliberate effort to write code that would magically break on larger data structures for reasons other than memory exhaustion.

By your rationale, I should have no problem playing on Huge maps, since I have 1 gig of RAM, but that's simply not the case. I can't even play on Large without a good chance my computer will crash. And it's not because of overheating, it just can't handle the calculations that are involved with something as simple as moving a unit from A to B.

[DougM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by Willem


By your rationale, I should have no problem playing on Huge maps, since I have 1 gig of RAM, but that's simply not the case. I can't even play on Large without a good chance my computer will crash. And it's not because of overheating, it just can't handle the calculations that are involved with something as simple as moving a unit from A to B.

No, I would claim that 1 gig is not enough to run huge maps for anyone, and depending on how much free memory you have (if you run a lot of other programs you may be using up your memory for other things) you may not even have enough for large. I would have to ask: is it rock solid on standard? If so, I would guess it is a memory issue. For me the game basically never crashes, excepting when it runs out of memory.

Computers don't magically crash when they perform difficult calculations. If they do, there's a reason, such as overheating, processor flaws, timeout etc. Maybe their code has timeouts: that's just dumb design on their part if so (I would consider that a bug). There can also be other bugs in the code: maybe their code can't handle maps with coordinates greater than byte sized, etc, but again ... I can't get any such bugs to occur for me, the game always crashes due to out of memory first. On my 2 gig machine with a relatively wimpy processor, it can run a 240x240 map just fine (albeit slowly, but it never crashes).

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Huge is Too Small

Originally posted by DougM
I would have to ask: is it rock solid on standard? If so, I would guess it is a memory issue. For me the game basically never crashes, excepting when it runs out of memory.

Not always, towards the end of the game I get periods of lag and jerkiness. However that clears up for awhile if I quit the game and restart. It could be symptoms of a memory leak, though I don't know enough about that to comment informatively.