[MOD] Gender equality in leaders

[Grenouille]

Originally posted by Jamski

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Austria

There's a good German female leader. Ok, she's Austrian, but she was the Empress of the Holy Roman Empire, and I'd argue that Austria is part of the Germanic Civilisation.

Frederick isn`t a german leader either, so it could happen. It`s even somewhat accurate to have a prussian and an austrian leader as choices for german leadership, in reference to the german dualism (Austria and Prussia fighting for control of the 1st reich). Hehe

As for a male leader of England: Go for Winston Churchill!

[Aloriel]

Jamski, thanks for the info about Maria Theresa. I will be looking her up in a few moments

Axxaer, if you don't have anything to contribute, just don't post. I ignore flames and trolls.

Grenouille, I can't believe I overlooked Churchill! Thank you for filling a hole in my head! Definitely adding him to the list of possible additions.

[JackRudd]

Another choice for England might be Richard I (Aggressive, Spiritual).

[Junuxx]

I found a great page about Incan women!

http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/webpages/andean2k/conquest/women.html

According to this site, men and women in the Incan Empire were fairly equal, and since duality meant such a big deal to them, both the Emperor (Sapa Inca) and Empress (Coya Inca) had a lot of power.

Here's the part that's of most interest for this mod, but do read the whole page, it's an interesting read

Three Coyas were known to be especially powerful in the history of the Incan people. These were Mama Huaco, Mama Ocllo, and Mama Anahuarque. All of these women wielded a lot of power as well as advising their sons and husbands about government. This is especially interesting in light of the fact that these women were married to three of the most prominent kings in Incan social history, Manco Capac, Topa Inca, and Pachacuti. From these examples it is evident that the Coya of the Incas had more power than most of her European equivalents, who were merely a means for a king to produce an heir in most cases.

About Mama Ocllo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_Ocllo

[Aloriel]

Nice find Junuxx! I was starting to wonder if I would find anyone for the Inca!

[MarkG]

Re: MOD: Gender equality in leaders

Originally posted by Aloriel
Greece: Arsinoe II (female) - daughter of Ptolemy I, she was a powerful figure in both Greece and Egypt OR Dora Bakoyiannis (female) - a present day member of Greek parliament, first and only female member

Dora Bakoyianni, first and only female member of what? not the parliament, the first woman in the greek parliament was decades ago and she certainly wasnt the only (she is actually mayor of athens now)


a better (imho) suggestion: Laskarina Bouboulina

http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/biography/bouboulina.htm

http://www.bouboulinamuseum-spetses.gr/English/Museum_Bouboulina.htm

[Theocrat]

Other Options

Hi all -
I really do like this idea, as I prefer playing Egypt and prefer male leaders.
You've mentioned the Roman Catholic Church's Pope Joan as a leader, but it made me think about adding the major religions as playable Civilizations. Some surely could argue that the Catholic Church certainly founded an empire.
Now, as an empire it might be weird being the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and your state church is Taoism.
Well, I am really interested in seeing where this goes. Good luck.
Be Well.
Theocrat Issak

[Aloriel]

Now that I have nearly a complete list of alternate gender leaders for the 17 countries that did not have them, I am going to trim the list down so that I, or we, can start working on establishing how they should be represented in game. These are the leaders I propose should be included in the mod. If anyone else has a lot of information about another leader they have in mind, please feel free to include links about that alternate leader. I will then review each and compare to my own list (below), then select the final list. Most of these I chose because of their fame, particularly notable acts, or simply because I could not find much detailed information about the other possible candidates. Some of these are listed because they were particularly warlike or especially unique, and thus add to the variety and flavor of Civ as it should be

Egypt: Ramessess II (Male) - One of the most famous ancient Egyptian leaders

England: Winston Churchill - nuff said!

Rome: Aggripina (female) - wife of Caesar Claudius, she was given allegiance and obedience by captured Celtic warriors, not her husband.

Greece: Arsinoe II (female) - daughter of Ptolemy I, she was a powerful figure in both Greece and Egypt

France: Catherine de Medicis - Adding her to the list of possible leaders for France after a bit of research on her proved that she was not part of the Italian leadership, but France!

Germany: Maria Theresa of Austria - (May 13, 1717 – November 29, 1780) was the first and only female head of the Habsburg dynasty. She was Archduchess of Austria, and Queen of Hungary and Bohemia and ruler of other territories from 1740 until her death. She also became the Holy Roman Empress when her husband was elected Holy Roman Emperor. She was one of the so-called "enlightened monarchs" (also refered to as "enlightened despots"). She was one of the most powerful rulers of her time, ruling over much of central Europe.

India: Indira Ghandi (female) - Prime Minister of India for many years

USA: Rhoda Fox Graves (female) - first female to hold a seat in the US Senate for more than 1 day, faught hard to earn the respect of her fellow senators, and eventually did. It is because of her that women in the senate are treated as equals, instead of ignored. It is also likely because of her efforts that we have had one female VP candidate, as well as a few nominees in the major parties.

Spain: Francisco Franco (male) - Fascist leader of Spain from 1930 till 1975

Mongolia: Mandukhai Khutan (female) - the only known female leader in Mongolian history.
Mandukhai was a daughter of Tumur, king from 1463 to 1467, and a younger wife of Manduul Khan. The feudal wars which lasted 100 years brought much sorrow to the Mongolian people. In their desire for peace, some lords and aristocrats wanted to revive the rule of the Khans to stop the domestic crisis. Queen Mandukhai occupies a very special place among those committed to this noble purpose.

Aztec: Queen Ilancueitl reigned 1349-1383, she was the fifth leader of the Aztec Kingdom, and the only queen to have ruled independantly. She was the second child of King Teuhtlehauc (the 4th King). The crown prince died before he could ascend to the throne, thus since King Teuhtlehauc only had one other child, she was named as leader. She married Tlatoani [Huehue] Acampixtli, "Toltec" King of Colhuacan, who held no power in the Aztec lands. The end of her reign marked the beginning of the Aztec Empire, instead of merely "Kingdom". It was her union with the Toltec King that formed the Empire. Their son was the first Aztec Emporer.

Inca: Mama Ocllo - Co-founder of Cuzco with her brother/husband Manco Capac. She is said to have been the daughter of the Moon Goddess herself, just as Manco Capac was said to be decended from the Sun God. This establishes the tradition of duality in Inca society, where women are regarded as equals in many ways, though lead completely different lives.

China: Empress Wu Zetian (Wu Chao), 625-705
Wu Zetian was very ambitious. She was not content with just being the empress. She wanted to be the emperor! Her opportunity came when Gao Zong suffered a stroke which crippled his ability to govern. As Wu Zetian had always expressed a strong interest in politics and had given him many great suggestions, Gao Zong let her run the country on his behalf. Gao Zong died in year 683. Because the two oldest sons of Wu Zetian and Gao Zong met with an untimely end, the third one ascended the throne and became the emperor Zhong Zong. Wu Zetian was not willing to give up the power yet. So when she found Zhong Zong hard to control, she deposed him and installed her fourth son to be the new emperor Rui Zong. Rui Zong was just a figurehead. He had no say in the state affairs. Several more years had passed before Wu Zetian decided to realize her dream once and for all. In year 690, Wu Zetian removed Rui Zong and declared herself the emperor of a new dynasty called Zhou. She became the first and only female emperor in the long history of China!

Japan: Empress Suiko Tenno 593–628 - The first empress and with her prime minister, established the 17 articles of constitution that were followed for an extremely long time in Japanese society. She was devoutly buddhist and spread buddhism throughout Japan. She also brought about closer ties with China, which made for a very peaceful era. (seriously considering this one)

Mali: Amina Sarauniya Zazzua (female), c.1533-c.1610 (Nigeria) - Unfortunately, not Malinese. If you can find a Malinese female leader, please tell me.
This queen of Zazzua, a province of Nigeria now known as Zaria, was born around 1533 during the reign of Sarkin (king) Zazzau Nohir. She was probably his granddaughter. Zazzua was one of a number of Hausa city-states which dominated the trans-Saharan trade after the collapse of the Songhai empire to the west. Its wealth was due to trade of mainly leather goods, cloth, kola, salt, horses and imported metals. At the age of sixteen, Amina became the heir apparent (Magajiya) to her mother, Bakwa of Turunku, the ruling queen of Zazzua. With the title came the responsibility for a ward in the city and daily councils with other officials. Although her mother's reign was known for peace and prosperity, Amina also chose to learn military skills from the warriors. Queen Bakwa died around 1566 and the reign of Zazzua passed to her younger brother Karama. At this time Amina emerged as the leading warrior of Zazzua cavalry. Her military achievements brought her great wealth and power. When Karama died after a ten-year rule, Amina became queen of Zazzua. She set off on her first military expedition three months after coming to power and continued fighting until her death. In her thirty-four year reign, she expanded the domain of Zazzua to its largest size ever. Her main focus, however, was not on annexation of neighboring lands, but on forcing local rulers to accept vassal status and permit Hausa traders safe passage. She is credited with popularizing the earthen city wall fortifications, which became characteristic of Hausa city-states since then. She ordered building of a defensive wall around each military camp that she established. Later, towns grew within these protective walls, many of which are still in existence. They're known as "ganuwar Amina", or Amina's walls.

Arabia: Co-Ruler al-Sayyida al-Hurra Malika 'Arwa bint Ahmad al-Salayhiyya of Yemen - The wife of al-Mukarram Ahmad (1067-84), she was joint ruler with her mother-in-law Queen Asma. After her husband's death she became ruler in her own name, having the Friday's Prayers said in her name. She lived (1047-1137).

Persia: Homa Shahrzad - In Ferdowsi's epic Book of Kings or Shahnameh, there is also a mythological reference to yet another Queen Regnant named Homa Shahrzad who ruled over 32 years.
Sheherazade, the heroine of The Thousand and One Nights, is sadly neglected in today's records of women of achievement. Although legendary (all legends are based on facts). Sheherazade, a woman of exceptional intelligence, wisdom and bravery saved not only her life by telling a series of spellbinding tales during the dark of Arabian nights, but the lives of a dwindling supply of virgins of her country, and, in so doing, educated a King. King Schariar, legendary King of Samarkand found he had been deceived by his wife and as punishment had his wife and a succession of three thousand virgins (one each night) put to death. Against her father's protestations, Sheherazade volunteered to spend one night with the King. Once in the King's chambers, Sheherazade asked if she might bid one last farewell to her beloved sister Dunyazade, who had secretly been prepared to ask Sheherazade to tell a story during the long night. The King lay awake and listened with awe to Sheherazade's first story and asked for another, but Sheherazade said there wasn't time as dawn was breaking, and regretfully so, as the next story was even more exciting. And so the King kept Sheherazade alive as he eagerly anticipated each new story and after one thousand and one adventurous nights, the King had not only been entertained but wisely educated in morality and kindness by Sheherazade who became his Queen. The present form of The Thousand and One Nights is completely Muslim in spirit and is thought to be native to Persia or one of the Arabic speaking countries. It is one of the few examples of a woman seen as a heroine in an Arabic country.

[Junuxx]

Good work! The list is sort of complete, I see.

I guess it's not quite done yet, however, so here's some comments

Rome proves a difficult empire for female leaders. I'm not too sure about this Agrippina but maybe it's the best we get. I remember Civ2 featured Livia.

Greece: Not too strong a candidate either. One issue is that she ruled only Egypt, which is a Civ by itself. If you're going the mythological route with Sheherezad, you might as well consider Athena...

France: Two problems. One: There already is a Catherine in the game. Two: Although she apparently had power in France, the de Medicis are widely known as influential Italians, so it might be confusing. Again, if you're going mythological, Joanne d'Arc seems obvious.

USA: I imagine many people thinking: "Rhoda Who?" Maybe it's because I'm not from the US, but is she known at all for what she did? Do they teach you this at school? She seems somewhat obscure, although I don't have a better candidate. Yes, Madeleine Albreight hasn't been mentioned yet, has she?

Mali: I'm searching, I'm searching...

[Theocrat]

Female American Leaders

Hi all -
I agree with the previous post regarding the American Females - a 1 day senator, 1st female or not, is important, yet not influential enough to be a major leader in Civ4. Same goes with the 1st female senator. Rice and Clinton2 have already been dismissed and although both have a future, at this point, it's just a future (and Clinton2 has only had one election for senator at this point).
So here are some other options. Now I've forgotten many of the actual names, so I'll try to be close, and give a description of what they did.
~ Betsy Ross - American Flag (or was she Red Cross?)
~ Martha Washington - where would we be?
~ Pochahontas - yes, an American Indian (which might be better as a civilization of their own [wouldn't that be cool, American Indians kicking the settlers of America a55es])
~ Dolly Madison - better known for her named cookies
~ Elenor Rosevelt - Although her husband was elected 4 times and is an option for the males
~ Justice Ruth Gingsburg - she is on the supreme court, and 1st female (right?) and as such, is very influenetial. Favorite unit - Lawyer - they would have to be like the spy but able to convert units to their side
~ How about a female CEO?

Some of the more obsure civilization females are going to be somewhat difficult. Also besides a female version name and picture, you need to come up with starting knowledge, favorite civic, and favorite unit.

Hope these help and not to confuse the picture a little more!
Be Well.
Theocrat Issak

[Junuxx]

Found *some* clue for Mali.

-Sassouma Bérété, evil witch queen, stepmother of the founder of the Malinese Empire Sundiata.
-Queen Dara of Djenne. Too bad I only found one single site that mentioned her.

[Aloriel]

Sheherazade does have drawbacks, I'll admit. But I think she is less mythology than Athena, who is an outright Goddess and religious figure for Greece. Still, probably better than the other two options I had found, which ruled only 1 year and 2 years... At least she is a sort of folk heroine. So I do believe I will stick with her for Arabia, especially in light of how difficult it is to find anyone...

I think you might be right about Catherine de Medici because of Catherine the Great, and the family name as well. Hmm... I never expected France to pose a problem LOL. I wanted to stray from Jean d'Arc since while she was a real person and highly influential, she was more of a general, than a king or queen. Though, perhaps that will work, since Tokugawa of Japan was also a general.... So, I think you might be right here. Jean d'Arc it is.

Greece is posing quite a problem as well. I do agree that Arsinoe II isn't that great of a choice... but I would like to avoid modern day, especially since apparently I didn't find accurate information as it is, as MarkG pointed out. After reading the web pages provided by MarkG, and deciding that generals are okay... Laskarina Bouboulina it is!

On to America....
You are completely right that few would even know who Ms. Felton was, having served only 1 day. Much of why I removed her in my second list. Rhoda Fox Graves, however, held office for some 14 years as a US senator, and as noted above was also the first women to hold a senatorial seat for any reasonable length. As to knowledge or popularity, neither is applicable. I have only heard about her as a result of looking for people to place in that position. However, this is Civilization. Learning is part of the idea, isn't it? I think I might resolve this situation by including her AND another prominent female whom people might have heard of, such as Betsy Ross, Susan B. Anthony, or perhaps the suggested Justice Ruth Ginsberg. I am not familiar with Dolly Madison other than for her cookies, and I really don't want to include someone who was simply the wife of a powerful figure, as can be seen by the choices I've made for the others.

Rome - I am really starting to wonder what I'm going to do with this blasted civ... Darn Romans don't seem to have had a single major female leader anywhere. Going to look up Livia, just to see if there's some hope left... EDIT: Having reviewed a website about Livia, I am glad she was mentioned. Livia is now my first choice, by far.

So, with these corrections and additions, we're almost there. Still need to look up those Malinese women...

[Junuxx]

Livia Drusa Augusta, Livia Drusilla, or Julia Augusta (58 BC-AD 29) was the wife of Caesar Augustus and the most powerful woman in the early Roman empire, acting several times as regent and being Augustus' faithful advisor. She was also mother to Emperor Tiberius and Drusus, grandmother to Germanicus and Claudius, great-grandmother to Caligula and Agrippina the younger and great-great-grandmother to Nero. She was deified by Claudius who acknowledged her title of Augusta.

Oh, deified, that's not bad :chuckle:
(wikipedia: Livia)

[Aloriel]

Hrm...Sassouma Bérété does not represent what I am looking for in a leader. I also tried looking up Dara of Djenne and found no websites, though I was looking only in English. Perhaps I should blow the dust off my French-English dictionary and take a stab at trying to find info about her in French....

If I can't find much about her though, I will simply have to stick with the Nigerian woman, whom I'm quite pleased with save for her not being Malinese...grr.

EDIT: After much effort, I cannot find anything about Dara of Djenne anywhere, either in French or English. Was this page you found in another language besides those Junuxx?

[Junuxx]

*searches site*

Ah, here it is. It's English, but Djenne is spelled as Jenne

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/songhai.html

Sunni Ali marched on Timbuktu and captured it along with its great University of Sankore, which had thousands of students from many parts of the world. During the waging of a seven year war Sunni Ali captured the great city of Jenne. Sunni Ali would marry the queen of Jenne, Queen Dara, and they would reign together splendidly. Sunni Ali eventually gained control over the entire middle Niger region.

That's all it says about Dara.

I agree Sassouma is a bit freaky, yeah