[MOD] Gender equality in leaders

[Aloriel]

Well, at any rate, I would like to get working on the leaders we do have. Maybe we'll be lucky and stumble on a Malinese female leader in some other way. Who knows...

Issue #1, we need pictures. These pictures apparently need to be in .dds format eventually. I am not personally familiar with .dds format... can Photoshop produce it?

Issue #2, we need to think about personality of these leaders and develop their attitudes. Some are fairly easy, others not.

Initial thoughts:
Jean d'Arc - Spiritual, Aggressive - favorite civic: heredity rule - She was said to have spoken with God about the future of France, and thus started her crusade to support the royalists during a major crisis that nearly ended the royal line.

Winston Churchill - Aggressive, Industrious - Favorite civic: representation - It is said that if not for Churchill, England would have fallen to the Nazis. His leadership showed strength, character and power, while holding steadfast to the ideals of representational government.

Francisco Franco - Not sure about traits - favorite civic: police state - He was perhaps the last fascist dictator to rule anywhere. I have great dislike for fascism, but I noted a complete absence of leaders who prefer police states... even chairman Mao doesn't have it as preferred. Francisco Franco seems an obvious choice for this.

Laskarina Bouboulina - financial, aggressive - favorite civic: not sure... perhaps representation or free religion...something that would represent her idealogy of a free greece.

[Junuxx]

Ok, I'll share one last find and then I'll go to bed

Yaa Asantewaa (c. 1850-1921) led the fight against British colonialists in Ghana. The Malinese Empire encompassed both modern-day Mali and Ghana (as did the Ghana and Songhay Empires) so I guess it makes some sense, a bit more than a Nigerian woman.

Also see http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePag...-up.php?ID=175

edit: In reply to the first post... I thought New Zealand had women in all 3 it's highest offices as well?

[Aloriel]

Hmm, impressive woman. Definitely on par with Amina, though not as lasting of an impact (Amina's walls just strike me as significant ) I'll definitely keep her in mind before I make any final decisions about Mali.
As to New Zealand, my info could have been old. You know how the web goes...

More thoughts:
USA - Rhoda Fox Graves - Not sure on traits - Favorite civic: Universal Suffrage - being one of the first female senators in the US, I think it's safe to say that Universal suffrage should be her favorite. I'll have to do more research on her to find good traits for her though. I'm betting Industrious and Financial, since she was a republican, but she was noted for voting against party lines quite often...

USA2 - Susan B. Anthony - Industrious, Organized - Favorite Civic: Universal Suffrage - A leader in the women's rights movement in the US, her organization is responsible for getting women the right to vote, and eventually getting at least a few women into office.

India - Indira Ghandi - Industrious, ?? (spiritual? aggressive? Expansive?) - She lead india for approximately a decade or more and shaped it into a major industrial power.

Aztec - Queen Ilancueitl - Expansive, Organized? - Favorite Civic: heredity rule - She is basically responsible for the beginning of the Aztec Empire. Her marriage to the Toltec king ended decades of strife between the two cultures, and in the end united them under one emporer, her son.

Inca: Mama Ocllo - Spiritual, Organized (creative?) - Favorite civic: Heredity Rule - Seeing as she was supposedly decended from a goddess, spiritual just fits. Organized because she is responsible for establishing a great city/capital. Pondering creative, since she is also responsible for establishing the dualistic traditions for women's role in Inca society

China - Empress Wu Zetian - aggressive, creative - favorite civic: heredity rule - She aggressively took power from her own sons to establish a new dynasty for China. Each dynasty had a distinct culture from the previous, thus my suggestion of creative

Rome - Livia - No real solid ideas here

Japan - Empress Suiko Tenno - spiritual, organized - favorite civic: organized religion - While Shinto was widely regarded as the religion of Japan, she brought Buddhism in, and spread it everywhere. Seeing as she is also responsible for the 17 article constitution, I feel that organized applies quite well.

Persia - Sheherazade - creative, philosophical - favorite civic: free speech?? or possibly pacifism? - She is known for telling the 1001 tales (arabian nights), which is why I give her creative, and philosophical because her ideal was to teach the sultan a lesson in morals. I am pondering free speech, as it was her speech that enabled her to survive, and pacifism, as her desire was to end the killings of virgins due to the sultan's outrage at being betrayed by his wife. Both stretches, but less so than any other, I think.

Mongolia - Mandukhai Khutan - unsure on traits - favorite civic: pacifism - She is noted for bringing peace to the tribes of mongolia after a horrible civil war.

I think that's all I can manage tonight. Getting kind of late for me.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Aloriel
After reading the web pages provided by MarkG, and deciding that generals are okay... Laskarina Bouboulina it is!

glad to be of help

she wasnt just a military leader, she also inspired and motivated people to revolt

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Aloriel
Laskarina Bouboulina - financial, aggressive - favorite civic: not sure... perhaps representation or free religion...something that would represent her idealogy of a free greece.

further reading and pics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina

http://www.undelete.org/woa/woa05-13.html#1

[Junuxx]

Here's how Livia looks in civ 2. (attachment)

I'd say she's creative and organized because of all the busts and statues of her were to propagandize the image of her being a role model, the perfect Roman woman, traditional and harmonious etc.

Favorite civic... I think we need a table of this. As well as leader characteristics, because we'll have loads of doubles otherwise. Anyway. Despotism?

http://dominae.fws1.com/Influence/Livia%20Augusta/Index.htm

[Junuxx]

IMHO, there are already way too much leaders which favor Hereditary Rule. Please don't make every monarch favor HR

I made an overview of traits per leader and a count of Favorite Civics. It's in the attachment

Notice that the current Churchill is much like Napoleon and Wu Zetian like Kublai.

If the attachment doesn't work, try this link

[Apocalypse Cow]

Here's a first shot at Franco. There aren't many good, large pictures of Franco on the 'net that I could find. The pictures need to be 512x 512, with the width stretched 125% for proper viewing in-game. I use DXTBMP for all my conversion needs. Works like a charm.



The zip is here:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...656_franco.zip

[Aloriel]

I agree with your comments about Livia. Creative and organized make sense as traits. Favorite civic is getting a bit overwhelmed by heredity rule, you aren't kidding there. However, do remember that rome was a republic... So she'd probably be representation.

I couldn't get that .doc to load unfortunately. Not sure what is going wrong. When I click on the link, I get the apolyton transfer page, then a blank page with a picture icon in the upper left corner, as if it's trying to load a picture. However, IE doesn't show any signs of loading (little windows logo isn't moving, no progress bar at the bottom, etc).

I do think it's inevitable that we will have cross over. There just aren't enough traits. But I do feel that you are right in suggesting that we hold off on final decisions on those till we can get a better grasp of what trait combinations are already used, and then try and not duplicate much. Makes for a good mod that people will actually want to download even if they don't care about gender equality

So, I guess we'll take those initial thoughts as a very rough draft of what these could possibly be, then compare to the current in game list. I'd also like to hear opinions differing from my own about what traits and favorite civics apply to the personages. Everyone has a little different take on things

EDIT: Oh yeah, and thank you Apocalypse Cow for the image of Franco. That will do nicely, especially since you made it exactly to the specifications Civ4 wants.

[Junuxx]

Can you see the .doc when you follow this link?

You are right that there aren't enough trait combos (26), but the traits+favorite civs combination should be unique, I think.

I think we need some leaders with Labor Civics as favorites. Emancipation anyone?

Rome, by the way, has been a Kingdom, a Republic and finally an Empire. Caesar Augustus was the first Emperor, and Livia was his wife.

[Junuxx]

Some thoughts:

Ramesses: Creative, Industrious, Slavery (Monument builder!)
Jeanne d'Arc: Aggressive, Spiritual, Organized Religion
Franco: Organized, Expansive, Police State
Mama Ocllo: Spiritual, Expansive, Bureaucracy ( Incan Empire was very centralistic)
Ilancueitl: Vassalage? ( fits the aztecs in general, I think)

[Aloriel]

Ahh! It worked with the second link! Looks like Firaxis tried to distribute the traits a lot, which is good.

Unfortunately, I have to do more xmas shopping now... I should be back this evening (eastern US time), but might be back sooner.

[Junuxx]

I searched for a good portrait of Ramesses, but I couldn't find one. Just statues, actually. So I decided to make one. Not quite sure about the result, my own opinion jumps from quite pathetic to very pathetic every minute or so.

I colored one of the best Ramesses statues in Photoshop and put it in front of Ramesses' temple in Abu Simbel. I also gave him the eyes, eyebrows, makeup and menes decorations of the death mask of Tutankhamen.

[JackRudd]

Bear in mind that there's an awkward mechanic in the Labour civics that doesn't apply anywhere else - if one civ has Emancipation, every other civ has a strong reason to adopt it. This could make a favoured civic choice here a bit of a handicap for any leader who is given Slavery/Caste System/Serfdom as a favoured civic.

Elsewhere in the civics, no vanilla civ leader has a favoured civic of Vassalage, Free Speech, Bureaucracy, Nationhood, Organized Religion, Pacifism or Environmentalism.

[Aloriel]

I am thinking that we could do with a few that do have favored civics from the legal, trade and religion aspects of government. Actually, I have felt for some time that Mahatma Ghandi is actually misrepresented in the game and should BE a pacifist leader. I will probably change him at some point for my own private games

On that note, I think quite a few of the leaders we are creating could very well take on Bureaucracy, Nationhood, Organized Religion, and vassalage... maybe a free speech or free religion in there too.

Perhaps we should take each leader separately and discuss ideas on what would be appropriate.

Ramesses II
He was definitely a monument builder, so Industrious definitely makes sense to me.
He was extremely religious, so perhaps spiritual.
His monuments still exist today, and helped to spread Egyptian culture, so perhaps cultural.
Aggressive is the only other that might come to mind, but his only major battle was Kadesh, and that was closer to a standoff than anything.

Favorite Civics:
Slavery would be an obvious choice, but a poorly thought one once emancipation comes on the scene.
Organized Religion may also work here, as might Theocracy. He was highly mindful of the gods throughout his reign, and his many monuments speak of this greatly.

Any other thoughts on Ramesses II?