[Mod] NORMAL game pace: SLOWER TECH but more normal unit building! (Other fixes too)

[ghen]

What, FIRE, do we have that - couldn't we burn down that jungle? RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!! ;-p

Now there's a crazy idea

[dearmad]

Poor starts are a symptom of the higher difficulty levels: the game concerns itself less and less with your start location the higher in levels you go. I am fixing that in the mod's next release. But changing the Jungle thing ain't gonna happen. It is one of the key elements to my mod for slowing down the economy somewhat -gasp- letting the environment affect the players -double-gasp-. It isn't all easy pickings when you want to change the environment to suit humanities needs- it takes effort, technology, and time.

And historically (very last time I respond to this silly line of thinking) jungles were not cleared deeply at all until the development of machinery that could do it and disease control that allowed the people doing it to live more than a few months into the job. Reference south east asian history and... oh.. the panama canal.

[Araynon]

[SIZE=1]

And historically (very last time I respond to this silly line of thinking) jungles were not cleared deeply at all until the development of machinery that could do it and disease control that allowed the people doing it to live more than a few months into the job. Reference south east asian history and... oh.. the panama canal.

Oh come on now, it's not a silly line of thinking at all. It's merely a different one. You prefer realism at the expense of balanced gameplay, and I agree there's a lot of appeal to that idea, no question. However, for some people gameplay and balance is more important.

[Gnasche]

As far as the jungle, everyone can mod the files to make the game how they want it...people seem to be asking dearmad to make a mod for them, even though he personally wouldn't get anything out of it. He's already said which files to look at.

I would like to know, dearmad, if you could point me to the file that would keep the jungles from spreading. Do you know if one setting affects both jungle and forest spreading?

[dearmad]

Originally posted by Araynon


Oh come on now, it's not a silly line of thinking at all. It's merely a different one. You prefer realism at the expense of balanced gameplay, and I agree there's a lot of appeal to that idea, no question. However, for some people gameplay and balance is more important.

To accuse me of not wanting gameplay balance when in FACT that is what I was doing by modding the jungles (and start positions now to be more equal) is specious. That I decided to do a game balance in a way that appears to mimic something historical is secondary.

YOU don't know what is in my mind as I do it.

[Araynon]

Originally posted by dearmad


To accuse me of not wanting gameplay balance when in FACT that is what I was doing by modding the jungles (and start positions now to be more equal) is specious. That I decided to do a game balance in a way that appears to mimic something historical is secondary.

YOU don't know what is in my mind as I do it.

That's very true; it's also likely very true that we have very different ideas of what constitutes game balance.

Anyway, it's a neat mod idea.

[Bhruic]

I must admit that I'm not sure why you would suggest that start positions are "more equal" with jungles that take a long time to remove (via tech advances)? I mean, someone who starts with their city surrounded by jungle would have very little options in terms of expansion. Plopping new cities in the jungle would be futile, so they would have to expand outside of it. On large/huge maps, that can be quite a distance from the starting city.

Anyone who didn't start in a jungle, on the other hand, is not so constrained. Sure, they can't expand into the jungle, but they have areas arround them that aren't jungle, giving them expansion potential.

Are there other factors I'm not taking into consideration?

Bh

[dearmad]

Originally posted by Bhruic
I must admit that I'm not sure why you would suggest that start positions are "more equal" with jungles that take a long time to remove (via tech advances)? I mean, someone who starts with their city surrounded by jungle would have very little options in terms of expansion. Plopping new cities in the jungle would be futile, so they would have to expand outside of it. On large/huge maps, that can be quite a distance from the starting city.

Anyone who didn't start in a jungle, on the other hand, is not so constrained. Sure, they can't expand into the jungle, but they have areas arround them that aren't jungle, giving them expansion potential.

Are there other factors I'm not taking into consideration?

Bh

I have not yet released it, but in the latest version of the mod, I *address* the uneven start thing at all difficulty levels. It means the computer sums the resources at your starting point and ensures you have a minimum plus amount- even though the number is inverted from xx to 100 (diety). This number formerly went UP you increased your playing difficulty level until it was quite possible you could be plonked down in the middle of the jungle. I just stabilized it at NOBLE level for the higher levels too.

Now it is far less likely. I was saying how this was a legit concern and one I had addressed.

[Bhruic]

I understand that part of it. In general, your starting city will be pretty decent, even in a jungle. But I was refering to secondary city expansion. Expansion can be pretty severely tied to terrain. If you're surrounded by jungle, and you're not going to get the ability to chop it down for a long time, that would seem to highly limit your options.

I suppose the same could be said for tundra and desert as well, but I find they aren't as expansive as jungle seems to be (at least on the maps I play).

Bh

[dearmad]

um. Sorry. But it's not something I will be changing in the mod- what you complain about is something I look for in the game- that challenge- for me it is a core enjoyment of the game to see the terrain influence the civs like this. if a few AI fall by the wayside due to it, so be it- many others in better positions don't. And if my position is almost all jungle, I enjoy that too- it's fun to overcome it.

I suggest just not installing that part- stick to just the gamespeed.xml. Plain vanilla CIV 4 with slowed down tech to expand the eras. Voila.

[Bhruic]

That's fine - I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out something that I perceive as causing a game imbalance. If that's outside the scope of your objectives for the mod, that's ok. I just wanted to be sure it was something you were aware of.

Bh

[LzPrst]

I posted a post on the general about the lack of game time in the different epochs. this is (hopefully ) just what I'm looking for.

it looks sweet. dl'ed and will try it out. results will be posted here in a week or so (got stuff to do before gaming...)

:d: to dearmad. even if this turns out to not be what I'm wishing for (i'm very picky) the effort is admirable and likely it will make this game far more interesting.

[LzPrst]

just a tip. if its possible to add the aggressive AI option to this mod that would be swell. normal civ games tend to be rather... dull. not enough WAR

[ghen]

My latest game had a large strip of jungle that basically seperated me and one other civ from 2 civs on the north side of the continent. It worked well as a buffer during war time and was quite satisfying when I finally got to cut it down. The only problem is, I put all my workers in the area at Biology and still didn't cut half the jungle before I won by diplomacy.

The fort additions were fun, I tried them out just to see but I doubt I'll use them much since I'm never gathering in my own territory except in cities. Maybe I should start a small land map to make up more choke points.

[dearmad]

Originally posted by LzPrst
just a tip. if its possible to add the aggressive AI option to this mod that would be swell. normal civ games tend to be rather... dull. not enough WAR

Just load the mod. SIngle player -> custom game -> select aggressive. That's what I've been doing. It makes for some VERY fun wars in all the eras!