DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica

[alva]

Message to ND

Hello mav_son,

First of all, let say, that I was sorry to hear the deal didn't go through (this turn), but that I am sure that Darekill acted with only the best of intentions and that he surely did this for the good of his own people.

I have asked our tactical professor to make the voyage to your great nation again (which is a very risky business nowadays I might add), to learn you how to defend your people in a more effective way again.
However, he has been instructed not to start his lessons until his payment has arrived safely to our account.
I'm sure you can see the benefit of this trade for the both of our nations, so I really hope we can come to some kind of agreement this time.

To answer your questions regarding our neighbourghs, I can tell you that we think that our war is not just fought by two nations only, and that what is happening at our border is just the opening scene of a much grander operation.
Who is and who isn't involved is not yet perfectly clear, but the picture is sharpening each turn.

We have no real and concrete proof of all of this, but let's say that we have good information on this through variety of channels.

We do not know for sure that you too will be facing the threat of being put under siege, but it is certainly a possibility I'm afraid, and it surely wouldn't surprise us.
That itself should be reason enough for both of our civilizations to come and work together as this might very well be the only way to repel these very threats.
We ourselves are still confident that we can overcome our invasion, however, it is of course impossible to be completely certain. Wars never are, let me put it this way, if we can overcome the next few years (turns) with a reasonable result, things will look allot better and we should be able to deal with this infection soon enough.
We were taken by surprise and are now paying the price for it, one more reason, we hope we can make this trade as soon as possible.

On another note, do you have any notion on whether you will go on with your research after feudalism and in what way?
As I have said before, we really should work together in both of our nations interest and perhaps even survival, if perhaps, we both are the subject of a worldwide conspiracy.


It is getting late here, my friend, the sun is setting behind the hill already and candles have been put on ration for everyone but the generals who have to put in double overtime. Yes, we must all contribute at this very crucial moment in history.

If you were to have any additional questions or information, our runners have vowed to risk their lives to deliver it for the good of yours and our motherland.
I have talked to many of their wives, and if there is one point that became clear, is that they were proud to be married with men that risk and even sacrificed their lives for the friendship between our nations and the safety of our peoples.
I remember one woman say,
"It is a dificult world we are living in, how did this all happen and all so suddenly. This would never have happened if we had Demogypticans as our neighbourghs, at least one can depend on them, unlike those crowding our borders right now. We only pray our brothers and sisters will not have to face this too someday soon.
Let us work together to prevent such a thing."
It is with them in mind that I ask, nay plee, for us to come closer to try and find a solution to make sure this will not happen.


Ohh, and again, please be not to hard on your ambassador, we all have grown to like him very much, and it would sadden us dearly to see him removed from his duties. Perhaps as a personal favour to our ex-president Sir Ralph? I'm sure he would appreciate it very much.


Until next time,
greetings from a land in darkness,
alva, ambassador of Gathering Storm,

[alva]

response from ND

Hello Alva,

I appreciate, that Your people took all risk to deliver the information. But
our discussions are still running and I don't want to make the same mistake
as Darekill did. I hope, that I had the last time to reject Your offer! But I
can tell You, that I gave your brave man to drink and food and he got a very
good room in our best Hotel in NT.

I feel very sad.

I am very concerned about the situation on Your continent and I am also
thinking about the situation on Borconia. Our thinktanks are working day and
night to discuss and to fix our strategie for the future. But there is a lot of
unknown, as You wrote to me.

Darekill broke our law. The judge has to decide, wheter he is guilty or not.
We are checking his personal diary and his house. We are investigating very
carefully. But I will do me best, that he gets a fair process and I also will
tell the judge about the good words, that You told about him.

I wish You good luck
mav_son
Governeur of ND

[alva]

Hy Alva,

I made my turn before looking to Ap.forum, sorry.

Yes, the break came to a bad time. But we also had problems with our server, so we could not discuss about the deal. (

Well, I will keep You informed.

With best regards
mav_son

I've sent this by mail too (same message)

Hi,

Good to see things going again after 'Poly was down earlier.
That always happens at the most interesting times,doesn' it

Say, have you guys made any progress on wether you will or you will not get feudalism from us.
Gow has got it for a few turns now...with chivalry next
Seriously, I do think this deal would benefit us both well.

I'll ask to send it anyway in case you need a little more time (this turn).



Alain,

[nbarclay]

Message sent to mav_son:

Greetings mav_son and people of Neu Demogyptica,

With the game about to get moving again, I would like to bring your attention back to the subject of Feudalism. We of Gathering Storm can understand the awkward position you found yourselves in when DareKill agreed to a deal to purchase Feudalism from us without going through your team's proper procedures. But we ask you to consider our situation as well, and how your actions are affecting us.

Choosing what technologies to research and how much to invest in research are always difficult choices in Civilization, and all the more so in multi-player games. Similarly, deciding the price and terms of sale to other teams can also be rather complex. When we set our asking price and terms for Feudalism, we did so based on the expectation that we would be able to sell it, at the very least, both to you and to Glory of War. That would still have left us bearing more of the research cost than either of your teams, but we had some hopes that we might be able to arrange additional deals with others. And even if we could not arrange other deals (which has turned out to be the case thus far), the difference in costs would not be so great as to hurt us terribly.

You could, legally speaking, purchase Feudalism from Glory of War (or from a direct or indirect customer of theirs) after their commitment not to sell or trade it ends. But if you do so, you place us in a position of having paid hundreds more gold than any other team for that technology. Worse, your team would be profiting at our expense from our having been led to believe that we could expect you as a second customer. Such a situation would have to make us more wary in any future business deals with Neu Demogyptica. Conversely, if you follow through with the purchase on the terms DareKill agreed to in spite of the procedural errors involved, it will send a clear message that Neu Demogyptica wants to deal honorably with its neighbors.

I would also note that one of the worst parts of the current situation for us is the waiting, not knowing whether or when we will ever get the gold we had expected from you for Feudalism. Imagine yourselves at war, needing gold for upgrades and rush buying, and not knowing for several turns when or whether you will get 200 gold that you had been led to expect. Think about how you would feel and you probably have a pretty good idea of how we are feeling at present.

We of Gathering Storm value the good relations that we have had with Neu Demogyptica, and we hope to do further business in the future no matter what you decide. But business will be much simpler and more straightforward if we do not have to get ironclad guarantees far in advance to ensure that the current situation will not be repeated. Indeed, if trades involving Feudalism set a precedent whereby researchers find it impossible to recover more than a small fraction of their costs, we may find ourselves living in a world where nations are reluctant to do any research at all. In any case, we would appreciate it if you could tell us as soon as possible whether you plan to buy Feudalism from us or not.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

When I sent the turn to N.D., I included a brief note:

Your turn. We're still waiting to hear something back regarding Feudalism. (A couple times, you've clicked to accept our offer without offering anything back; was that intentional, or some kind of mistake?)

I got a couple messages back from Borc: First

Hi Nathan,
our Gouverneur Mav_son is missing for 8 days now :-( so our gouvernment is a bit confused at the moment, sorry. I will try to chat with darekill today to see whats gong on and what we have to do now...
good luck
borc

And the about three hours later:

Hello Nathan,
Sorry: as it seems we can not make the Feudalism Deal with you :-( I was not involved in the game the last weeks and so i dont know how this decision exactly was made... (and mav_son is missed for a week now). Anyway darekill and me and others feel very sorry about this and we started to think how we can offer you a compensation for this all. Our idea at the moment is to pay the 88gc costs to install an embassy at you and also to offer you an alliance against RP because we heard rumours that they plan to start actions against you. what do you think? would this help us to keep you as our friends? How are the things going on your continent. Do you have any ideas how we can
assist you?

good luck Borc

[zeit]

Our reply:

Greetings Borc, Darekill, and People of Neu Demogyptica,

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding, we have had a drop in activity over the last several days, but hopefully this will change soon.

We are sorry to hear about your recent crisis in government. You have all of our best wishes in resolving the matter and restoring order to your great nation.

In regard to Borc’s recent message to us, while we would certainly welcome an alliance if Roleplay moves against us, we consider it prudent to keep out of your continent’s politics to the extent that we can for the time being. We have our own war to fight, and while the tide is now moving in our favor, we still have a long way to go before we can consider the Voxian threat eliminated. (And, as I noted before, the absence of the 200 gold we had expected to get from you has slowed down our efforts a bit. Not only did it cost us directly, but it undercut our ability to invest in obtaining more gold and production over time.) We hope you can see the sense in our desire not to get involved in a new fight while we are still very much caught up in an existing one.

The idea of your establishing an embassy in our lands is also something we view as a mixed blessing. On one hand, it would be useful in facilitating future in-game diplomatic agreements. But on the other, it would give you additional information about the current state of our capital. So while we certainly do appreciate the gesture, we are more skeptical of its practical value. If you would be willing to give us the gold it would cost you to establish the embassy and let us be the ones to establish it, that would achieve the same goal of opening up future in-game diplomatic possibilities at the same cost in gold to you, but would be clearly and uniformly a positive event from our perspective. Further, to the extent that establishing an embassy is a little bit cheaper for us than for you, it would even provide a way to make up for a small part of the gold we had hoped to get without costing you extra.

I can’t promise that such a gesture would completely compensate in our people’s minds for the loss of an expected 200 gold at a critical time. But we do understand the awkwardness of the situation you found yourselves in, and we very much appreciate your desire to resolve the situation honorably. It is our hope that our two nations will continue to enjoy a peaceful and mutually beneficial relationship.

I have considered arranging a chat between representatives of both teams, to discuss these and other issues. Please tell me if you'd like to hold one as well.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Zeit, Chief Diplomat

[zeit]

Good news from Borc:

Hello Zeit,
We are very glad that you can still see us as your friends! With the next move we will offer you 80gc to enable you to open an embassy in Neu Theben!
We understand also that you dont want to be involved in the politics of our island before you war has ended. We wish you all the best for this war!
We have a small web chat at www.cylusion.com/neudemogyptica/
maybe we can visit us there next week?
There is nothing urgent to discuss i think but maybe we can have a nice talk about the future?
all the best
Borc

And my hasty reply:

Honorable Borc of NeuDemogytica.

Thank you for your blessing, may the Gods of Storm bless you as well with your doings. I also thank you for the offer of gold- this will certainly be used for a good cause. I will deliver your message to the team, and tell them to accept the offer.
Please tell me when are you going to hold a chat, and I would happily join.

[zeit]

Invitation:

Hello Zeit!
The situation on your continent is very interesting as it seems. We are very proud to have an embassy now with your famous civ. Anyway we would like to invite you to a chat with our people...

What do you think if at least we both make a first small and short chat next Tuesday 19.00 GMT at our chat room at www.cylusion.com/neudemogyptica... we can discuss there the topics for a longer and bigger chat with the others... what do you think? Would be nice to shake hands!

Greetings
Borc

My acceptance.

Dear Borc!

Thank you for the kind invitation. I certainly hope I can join the chat, and If not, someone else from my team could step in.

Thanks again.
Zeit

[zeit]

I've saved myself the trouble and uploaded the log. I hope that's not a security problem.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/zeit/156chat672.txt

[alva]

Since I didn't send the message, no reason to keep it up here.

[zeit]

from Borc:

Dear Zeit,
I was some days away in RL but now i am happy that i can send you the next message.
Our people are glad to see that we both had such a nice chat the last week.
At the moment it seems that that there is nothing very urgent to discuss between GS and ND.
But one the other hand i would like to present my people some small results to show them that our relations are becoming better and better.

So here is our little proposal
(our people already accepted it with a poll in our forum)

1) We would like to sign a NAP with you until 500 AD
2) We would like to have the next chat ~70 BC with you because we can offer you engineering then.
3) ND will try to build a harbor as soon as possible

what do you think?

good luck
Borc

I just told him we'll get back to him soon, and that alva will handle the communication.

[zeit]

to Borc:

Honorable Borc.

I have the team's reply on the matter of trades and the NAP proposal.

First of all, the NAP.

I'm sorry to say that at this point the GS wishes not to sign such a treaty- a good way to explain this decision is the known phrase: "It's not you, It's me (us in this occasion)". We have discussed this matter for quite some time, and have decided that signing a NAP with any team on Bob, at this point, would prove problematic: It might make the two others more likely to unite against you- and since you are sandwiched between RP and GoW- this makes you a viable target.
Signing with more than one team also brings the opportunity of a 2 Vs. 1 attack.
However, I can assure you the GS wishes to maintain a long-term trading relations, and sees our relations with ND favorably, especially when we consider the late "problematic" chain of events.

Regarding Luxury trades: since you are connected by road to RP and GoW (or at least one them), and they both have a harbor, as long as you are not in war, (Hopefully your harbor will be ready by that time...), we can trade Luxuries- What do you say about Furs/Incense for Spices deal?

As for Engineering- I am sorry to say that we will get the tech from Vox, as part of our peace agreement. Since they pretty much had nothing else to offer us, we had no other choice. A word of friendly advice, though, Vox is planning to sell the tech around, to get some cash out of it for their new start- If you wish to pay for at least some of ther research costs by selling it, I suggest you start getting contracts quickly, and try to outbid them by selling for as low as possible. You have little other choice, If you wish to get something for it.

As I said- I won't be in charge of the direct diplomacy with your team, Shiber (and not alva, sorry about that) is your ambassador now, and he'll take future correspondence in his hands.

Cordially,
Zeit.

And also:

Borc,

I have forgot to include this on my letter: What do you say about a WM trade: we wish to sell our map, do you want to buy it?

Zeit

[Shiber]

Honorable Borc,

First thing's first, I am happy to announce that I have been appointed to the position of ambassador to Neu Demogyptica. I will be taking over correspondence between our two civilizations from now on.

My first assignment as ambassador to your nation is to send forward our official apology for this late response. As you might have read on the public forum, team Gathering Storm likes to work out of a concensus, and as such, we may, at times, take a little longer to reply than other teams do. But know that we value good and open relations with our friends as much, if not more, than any other team in this game. Now, to answer your latest proposals:

I was very glad to read your message, when it arrived. It encourages me to read that the people of Neu Demogyptica are looking forward to strike deals with Gathering Storm, and I very much look forward to strengthening our relations. This is why it is so difficult for me to turn down some of your proposals, but thankfully, we do have some other business to discuss, business that can be very profitable for both our nations.

With regard to the matter of the long-term NAP, I'm afraid that my team cannot accept that offer. I assure you that we have discussed this issue thoroughly (in fact discussions began about a day before we received your latest message, so the debate was not focused only at ND but also at the other civs on Bob), and we have come to the conclusion that it will be best for all parties involved if we simply stayed out of Bobian politics as much as possible for the time being. We believe that by signing a NAP with one civ, we will polarize the two remaining civ against us and the other party involved and may even unintentionally trigger a 2 vs. 1 war; by signing NAPs with two civs, we do basically just as much damage and again, trigger a 2 vs. 1 war; by signing NAPs with all three civs, especially long-term NAPs, we paralyze ourselves and prevent ourselves from intervening in Bobian affairs should the international community call for such intervention.
We, as a team, understand your desire to sign a NAP. However, we feel that by doing so, we will be working against our mutual interest. However, if it is assurances that you are looking for, I give you my word that no single member in GS has ever raised the notion of attacking your fine empire, and in fact, we are looking forward to having a long-term trading partner (I will specify shortly).

On to the matter of Engineering. As you must have heard, we are negotiating a peace accord with The Voice. Our economy has suffered greatly during the war with Vox Controli, and we have made great sacrifices on the way; therefore, we seek to receive compensations and reparations from Vox within a peace agreement. But alas, Vox's once-glorious, now pop-rushed, broke and collapsed empire of Vox Controli has little left to offer us, and among the little that they can give us as reparations is the technology of Engineering. There's nothing that we could possibly ask from Vox to replace Engineering if we decide to buy it from you instead, and surely, you must understand that we would rather receive it for free from Vox than pay for it. Therefore, we cannot accept your second offer as well.

On this matter, I would like to give you a word of advice: we fear that Vox will try to strike early deals with your neighbours and sell around Engineering when they're done researching it, thus depriving you of the chance to recover some of your research costs. It seems logical to us that your neighbours, Glory of War and Role Play, would prefer to finance Vox rather than one of their neighbours which they may be planning to go to war with (I must emphasize that we have no solid information regarding that part, we are just theorizing at the moment), and so, you may end up paying the first researcher cost for Engineering while everyone else pays much less, and you will come out disadvantaged out of this affair. Hopefully you can find a way to stop that nasty affair from happening to you - we wish you the best of luck.

Now, to some more pleasant business. We are very glad to hear that you will be building a harbor very soon. We will have a harbor of our own in a matter of turns and we will be able to trade with you through GoW's harbor and land trade route, and once you complete your harbor, trade will become undisruptible, even if war breaks out on Bob. We have several trades to offer:

1) Trade of luxuries: straight deals of lux-for-lux. We are looking forward to hearing which luxuries ND is prepared to trade.
2) Trade of Maps: we would like to sell our world map, in exchange for gold, gpt or other goods. Our world map contains a complete map of Stormia, including never-seen-before, exclusive footage of the south and inlands of our continent. Please let us know if you are interested, and what price you may want to pay.
3) Future trade of technologies: we are looking for a long-term tech-trading partner. If you too are interested in entering such a partnership, please let us know.

I am looking forward to working with Neu Demogyptica. I would also like to set up an IRC chat sometime - please let me know what times might be convenient (and keep in mind that we live in almost the same time zone).

Cordially,
Shiber,
Gathering Storm ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.

[Shiber]

Hello Shiber,

thx for your long last message!
What a pitty that we can not make a NAP because we saw this as a first step to a glorious relationship between our both nations. but we can understand that you dont want to be too much involved in our islands politic.
Anyway i will try to discuss with our people how we can start to trade as soon as possible.

To your questions:

1) We dont need your your world map, sorry... we need much money at the moment to to build our cities.

2) Trade of luxuries: we are discussing this at the moment. but it is possible that we have to give our spice first to somebody else as a part of a bigger deal. anyway we start to build a harbor!

3) Tech trade. we still need 13 turns for engineering and so it seems that vox and all will have it before we can finish it. probably we will go for more science investment in the future, maybe we go for invention... what are your plans?

yours,
borc

[Shiber]

Honorable Borc,

Please excuse me if I cut straight to the business, but my RL schedule prevents me from going into lengths.

Regarding our World Map: we can certainly understand if you are short on cash, and so, we'd like to propose a loan with 0% interest. We offer you to take our World Map now, and pay for it later. If this sounds interestings to you, please send back a price offer and a date at which you would like to transfer the funds.

Regarding trade of luxuries: we are very happy to hear that you are building a harbor! That would certainly strengthen our trading relationships. Additionally, we suggest that you build a town on the eastern coast of Bob and connect it to your trade network, so that we would still be able to trade in all possible events of war.
Please keep us posted on the matter of spice; that is, whether you'd be able to trade for it or not.

Regarding research: we don't have definite plans in the future, but when we will, we'll make sure to let you know. We will keep your intentions for being the first researchers of Invention in mind.

Best regards,
Shiber, GS ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.