Catholic Answers

[Ben Kenobi]

Seems quite legit showing that it was actually common.

I have the actual numbers at least among the ancestors of the queen. No, it wasn't common. As I said, Richard II was the only English King who married a girl younger than 12.

Going through the Queen Consorts:

Anne Neville - 16
Elizabeth York - 20
Elizabeth Woodville - 27
Margaret Anjou - 15
Catherine Valois - 21
Anne of Bohemia - 16
Joan of Navarre - 33
Philippa of Hainaut 14
Isabella of France 16
Eleanor of Castile 14
Eleanor of Provence 14
Isabella of Gloucester 17
Eleanor of Aquitaine 30
Empress Matilda 26
Matilda of Scotland 20
Matilda of Boulogne 20
Matilda of Flanders 20

And there you go. Only 4 minors.

[Proteus_MST]

Right. Nothing to do with union of man and woman.

Not really, considering the old testamentary rules that force an (unmarried) rape victim to marry her rapist.
Obviously the girl was considered a trade good for her father ... and deflowering it was to damage it (so it cannot be "sold" without problems by her father anymore), so it was better for her father (surely not for herself) to have her married to her rapist

[ZEE]

What a bunch of barbaric buffoons YHWH worshippers are.

Satan has already won.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not really, considering the old testamentary rules that force an (unmarried) rape victim to marry her rapist.

One, please show me where it says rape. It does not. If the marriage is already consummated then the marriage is considered to be valid because of the bond between husband and wife.

Obviously the girl was considered a trade good for her father ... and deflowering it was to damage it (so it cannot be "sold" without problems by her father anymore), so it was better for her father (surely not for herself) to have her married to her rapist

Right. So the woman is 'damaged' by having sex with her husband. And people say Catholics hate sex?

Also, "it"? Really, Bebro?! Here we see women as people. Not sure about Germany..

[Proteus_MST]

One, please show me where it says rape. It does not. If the marriage is already consummated then the marriage is considered to be valid because of the bond between husband and wife.



Right. So the woman is 'damaged' by having sex with her husband. And people say Catholics hate sex?

Also, "it"? Really, Bebro?! Here we see women as people. Not sure about Germany..

I am not BeBro

Deuteronomy 22:28-29:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, ²⁹ he shall pay her father fifty shekels^[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22:28-29

"Rapes" and "seizes her" definitely isn't considered consensual sex


And "it" definitely sounds right ... noone cares for the womans feelings here (I am really really sure that no woman in her right mind woulod want to marry someone who has raped her) ... she is considered no more than a trade good

And yes, women in germany are considered to be equal ... fortunately german laws aren't inspired by the laws you can find in the old testament
(if you try to find countries with laws inspired by the old testament, look at arabic countries with their sharia laws ... those are the closest to the old testament laws you can find nowadays)

[ZEE]

Don't worry, Ben. I think I have some sway in Hell now...

I'll ask Beelzebub to make some... special arrangements just for you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sorry Proteus.

"Rapes" and "seizes her" definitely isn't considered consensual sex

It's also not what the Church is referring to. Nice try.

[Proteus_MST]

Sorry Proteus.



It's also not what the Church is referring to. Nice try.

I haven't mentioned the catholic church with one word ... I referred to old testamentary christianity.
Which IMHO is a fitting term for OT Judaism, considering that christians still believe in the same god as the one that is depicted in the old testament, with all the rules he laid out and things he did

[kentonio]

www.theroyalforums.com actually has a thread on the subject of young noble brides.

"Marchioness Barbara of Brandenburg-Ansbach was 8 years old when she was married to Duke Heinrich IX. of Groß-Glogau-Crossen, was 10 when she became widow, and was 10 when she was married to King Vladislaw II of Bohemia."

"There was also Archduchess Margarete of Austria, daughter of Maximklian I. and Maria of Burgund. She was with 3 years brought to France to be educated at as Queen of France and married to Karl VII."

"- Louis XV's father Louis Duke of Burgundy b. Aug 16 1682 m. Dec 7 1697 - he was 15 but his wife Marie-Adelaide b. Dec 6 1685 on her wedding was 12 years and 1 day!!!"

"Also Margaret Beaufort married at twelve and had Henry VII at thirteen so that one was certainly consummated right away. She also had another marriage that was annulled when she was seven."

Many, many more at the link. Ben will now try and say that it they were not actually consumated until later, which the last example above shows to be often complete bull****.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...y-17081-2.html

[Aeson]

Ben is under the impression that if it's over 12, it's ok ... demonstrated by how he keeps trying to justify it with "well they were over 12" ...

[Ben Kenobi]

And "it" definitely sounds right

The only one who isn't referring to women as persons is you, Proteus. Not the Church.

... noone cares for the womans feelings here

How so? All the Church is saying is that marriage is marriage, and the bond between husband and wife is something that persists. I'm not sure why you are stating that her feelings are not considered. They are. That is why the marriage is protected not discarded when inconvenient.

(I am really really sure that no woman in her right mind woulod want to marry someone who has raped her)

The only one saying anything about rape is you, Proteus.

... she is considered no more than a trade good

Again, the only one who's made that statement is you. How does affirming a marriage between a man and a woman count as her being 'nothing more than a trade good'?

And yes, women in germany are considered to be equal

Then perhaps you should be getting on with the times, eh?

(if you try to find countries with laws inspired by the old testament, look at arabic countries with their sharia laws ... those are the closest to the old testament laws you can find nowadays)

Ah, well you might want to point that out to Aeson et, al.

[Ben Kenobi]

Many, many more at the link. Ben will now try and say that it they were not actually consumated until later, which the last example above shows to be often complete bull****.

Once again 4 examples out of 50k is considered to be *common*. I've already shown you the numbers for England, which clearly show the opposite.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben is under the impression that if it's over 12, it's ok ... demonstrated by how he keeps trying to justify it with "well they were over 12"

All I stated is that there is just one example of a Queen consort under 12, which is a factual statement. Are you contesting my statement?

[rah]

Once again 4 examples out of 50k

Where did the 50K number come from? You only listed 17 in your example. This ranks right up there with Jesus's miracle with the fishes feeding the masses.

[Aeson]

All I stated is that there is just one example of a Queen consort under 12, which is a factual statement. Are you contesting my statement?

Ben trying to pretend that waiting until she's 12 to sleep with your child bride somehow makes a difference ...

"Yes, there were occasionally very young betrothals, but they wouldn't necessarily end up married to that person, and they wouldn't live or sleep with the girl until she was older than 12."