Texas Liberals pledge allegiance to Satan...

[kentonio]

It's evil to make a surgical clinic operate under certain basic health and safety standards simply because of the type of surgery performed there? What was the pro-abortion movements problem with Gosnel again?

Ah so we're moving back to using terms like 'pro-abortion' again are we? Cool, I'll return to calling you guys anti-choice then, because lord knows the last thing this subject needs is to dial down the rhetoric.

In answer to your 'question', please explain why if this bill was about basic health and safety that it was opposed by the Texas Medical Association, Texas Hospital Association and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology?

Follow up question: Since multiple countries in Western Europe (including anti-religious France) have set a limit on abortions after 12 weeks, what's the issue with limiting the practice in Texas after 20 weeks?

'anti-religious France' is pretty hilarious, given that despite a big drop in people self identifying as religious, France remains quite a deeply Catholic country by European standards.

The problem with the Texas (and other throwback states) attempts to pass these bills however is not that there shouldn't be any controls or limits on it, but rather than these laws are an utterly transparent way to ban it in any practical way. How can you expect pro-choice people to go along with laws that are opposed by the medical community, involve mentally torturing women who decide they need an abortion and try and price half the country out of receiving one?

The really stupid thing is that if the two sides actually engaged and tried to find a compromise, bringing in a time limit wouldn't even be hard. The number of people who want late term abortions to be legal on demand is actually pretty ****ing tiny, but you have to convince everyone that you're genuine about a compromise, not just bringing in a ban piece by piece.

[DinoDoc]

Ah so we're moving back to using terms like 'pro-abortion' again are we?

Back to using?

Cool, I'll return to calling you guys anti-choice then, because lord knows the last thing this subject needs is to dial down the rhetoric.

Only if I can call you guys anti-life?

In answer to your 'question',

I'm not seeing an answer to the question. I'll repeat it again. What exactly is evil or otherwise morally objectionable about requiring a surgical clinic to meet certain basic health and safety standards? Is it the type of surgery they do there that should give them a pass? Follow up: If a clinic can't meet these standards, isn't it better for the patient that it is shuttered?

'anti-religious France' is pretty hilarious, given that despite a big drop in people self identifying as religious, France remains quite a deeply Catholic country by European standards.

That's nice. However as seems to be your usual tactic it completely fails to answer the question asked. Why are American liberals who love Western Europe in most respects so openly hostile to emulating it here wrt the length of time you have to kill your child? The arch-conservatives in Texas are only trying to limit after 20 weeks rather than going as far as the deeply conservative country of France that limits it after 12 weeks and the pro-abortion lobby is fighting even that.

[DaShi]

I think pro-abortion and anti-abortion are far less polemic terms than pro-life or pro-choice, so even I can't complain about DD using it; as much as I want to.

[kentonio]

Only if I can call you guys anti-life?

Sure, why not? It's what you believe after all, isn't it?

I'm not seeing an answer to the question. I'll repeat it again. What exactly is evil or otherwise morally objectionable about requiring a surgical clinic to meet certain basic health and safety standards?

Ok, I'll dumb down the answer if you're struggling. Your question is deceitful and pointless. If there was a genuine lack of basic health and safety standards then the Texas Medical Association, Texas Hospital Association and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology would not oppose it as they do. It's a transparent and pathetic attempt to add a layer of credibility to a law that lacks it on every level.

The pro-life side want to ban abortion because they believe fetuses should be treated like humans. Why not just have the honesty to stand up and own that position instead of inventing bull**** lies to try and sneak in your legislation by the back door? Could it be because when the questions are posed openly, there isn't enough public support to pass them?

That's nice. However as seems to be your usual tactic it completely fails to answer the question asked. Why are American liberals who love Western Europe in most respects so openly hostile to emulating it here wrt the length of time you have to kill your child? The arch-conservatives in Texas are only trying to limit after 20 weeks rather than going as far as the deeply conservative country of France that limits it after 12 weeks and the pro-abortion lobby is fighting even that.

Are you being particularly dumb today? Re-read what I actually posted and you might realize that I already answered your question. You're pushing the pro-choice side (and that isn't just liberals no matter how much easier it is to pretend its a left/right issue) into a position where they can't trust the pro-life side an inch. When you call people baby killers and try and ban abortion via deceptive tricks and tactics, why the **** would the pro-choice people compromise?

[kentonio]

I think pro-abortion and anti-abortion are far less polemic terms than pro-life or pro-choice, so even I can't complain about DD using it; as much as I want to.

No-one's really 'pro' abortion though, it's just another term meant to paint one side as evil.

[DinoDoc]

Ok, I'll dumb down the answer if you're struggling.

Your answer assumes that anything is being banned. Nothing is. All that is being done is mandating an increase in basic safety standards at abortion clinics which is recent news stories are something to go by is sorely needed. Those clinics that meet the new standard are free to remain open.

Your question is deceitful and pointless.

My question is merely attempting to get at the source of the hostility underlying the protests typified by the video I linked to in the opening post. So far the only answer that I've gotten that makes any sense is hysteria and paranoia.

Why not just have the honesty to stand up and own that position instead of inventing bull**** lies to try and sneak in your legislation by the back door? Could it be because when the questions are posed openly, there isn't enough public support to pass them?

Well I haven't seen any polling wrt the clinic standards but here is where public support is wrt a 20 week abortion limit according to a HuffPo poll no less:

[DinoDoc]

No-one's really 'pro' abortion though, it's just another term meant to paint one side as evil.

Based on how you view the procedure, why would you consider the term evil?

[DaShi]

No-one's really 'pro' abortion though, it's just another term meant to paint one side as evil.

I'm pro-abortion.

[kentonio]

Your answer assumes that anything is being banned. Nothing is. All that is being done is mandating an increase in basic safety standards at abortion clinics which is recent news stories are something to go by is sorely needed.

Ah cool, so we should legislate based on recent news stories as opposed to say.. the professional advice of recognized medical bodies.

Those clinics that meet the new standard are free to remain open.My question is merely attempting to get at the source of the hostility underlying the protests typified by the video I linked to in the opening post. So far the only answer that I've gotten that makes any sense is hysteria and paranoia.

Oh stop yourself already. The GOP have invented an issue (health and safety) which isn't a real issue that genuine medical organizations recognize, and yet now it's the pro-choice side showing 'hysteria and paranoia'. Get a grip for ****s sake.

Well I haven't seen any polling wrt the clinic standards but here is where public support is wrt a 20 week abortion limit according to a HuffPo poll no less:
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So why aren't you moving to legislate on that one issue? Why exactly all this bull**** lying about health & safety?

[kentonio]

DP

[Aeson]

I'm pro-abortion.

It sounds so much more palatable than "pro-baby-murder".

[Ben Kenobi]

Follow up question: Since multiple countries in Western Europe (including anti-religious France) have set a limit on abortions after 12 weeks, what's the issue with limiting the practice in Texas after 20 weeks?

Because Texas is more liberal than France?

[kentonio]

It sounds so much more palatable than "pro-baby-murder".

True, like anti-choice sounds better than 'masochistic scum who want to turn back women's rights half a century'.

[Aeson]

True, like anti-choice sounds better than 'masochistic scum who want to turn back women's rights half a century'.

But it's much more defamatory to just call them "Republicans".

[Elok]

masochistic

?