Welcome to Apolyton and in the game damnrunner, have fun time
Well, it seems you know better than me who is who there.Originally Posted by OzzyKP
Thanks Ozzy for the nice words. Still a bit uncertain if I join, as my game schedule is pretty full now
But the better the gaming crowd the more chance you guys can twist my arm.
One person which would be excellent to join is Egypt (DoF). Still don't know who he is, but sure a formidable and chivalrous opponent.
So Metra: you get one clue: I am not Egypt..
I don't know of any ZoC mods. I think Dawn of Man or Rise of Mankind had one in it, but I'm not downloading 1GB to find out.
OK, thanks for the clue. I'll tell you what, I will check it out. If it seems one of those does have a Naval ZOC, then i will download the whole mod and see if i am able to separate the ZOC part. If I can... ( And again... you promise to play if I do), then i will try to integrate it.
@ damnrunner- Welcome
Oh and FYI, the "double" movement only applies crossing ocean. Once you get to the coastal areas or in the Mediterranean or Caribbean, movement of ships is normal.
I agree with DNK that it is not wise to implement that double move.
Fighting against Egypt massive naval battles it is clear that the movement range is crucial for an interesting naval game.
(we fought battles of 30+ battleships against each other).
Actually I wouldnt change a thing considering naval matters. And if you really must, then only change movement range of galleys, and triremes..
Trade is the name of the game..
I couldn't tell from your last post Carthage... Are you signing up for this game? I only ask because I most of the discussion about trying to accomodate DNK(ZOCs and such), centers around the idea that he might actually play the game
We played with this exact ship movement in DoE I, and it was fantastic... Couldn't imagine playibg without it TBH. In fact all the critical strategy in the game, at least the endgame, was centered around Naval tactics.
I think DoF is totally different TBH, because in DoF we were basically using a Map of the Mediterranean. That's nothing like an Earth Map. It was essentially Pangea, with an inland sea. Totally different dynamic for Naval tactics. But i can see how it was good for inland sea pangea though.
When you think about it, this Mod has both, because for Naval combat in the Mediteranean(which is what DoF is), we will have normal movement. It's only in the open ocean where the faster movement kicks in.
Ozzy... the next few turns will tell how hard this start is, I think
Really, I'm not ready to commit with or without ZoC added (and it might be impossible to add; I'm not sure it's worth the effort to look even). As an alternative for discussion... I'm going to attempt what I did in the DoE2 thread again. MP like this (2x for coastal tiles):
galley/trireme - 4
caravel - 5
galleon - 6
frig/priv - 6
sotl - 5
iron - 3(promo)
trans/battle/carrier/subs - 6 (promo)
destroyer/missile/stealth - 8 (promo)
(promo) means a free "coastal" promotion which negates the penalty. Basically, you get a good bump in MP for classical-ren ships while leaving modern ships reasonable and fairly untouched.
Also, double the amount of coastal tiles (2x from land, not 1x).
Consider adding +1 vis to oil ships.
I would like to join!
Another thing... When I was playing DoF, it seemed like the only substantial amount of Naval Warfare was between Egypt and Carthage, right? In DoE, the Naval Maneuvers often involved Ships from several Nations at a time, which was much more interesting IMO. Part of the reason was that for example, when Turkey invaded North America, France could get ships over there to join the Aztec and American fleets really quick. Another example was England sending ships to the straits of Gibraltar to break a French blockade of Turkey. All those complex Naval manuvering was possible because of the faster ships. I mean I'm sure that those epic battles were fun for Egypt and Carthage in DoF, but nobody else got involved. The ships were too slow, that's what i think.
@ DNK - I will look into your suggestion more closely when i wake up tommorow (its 3AM here)
@ Toni - Welcome! I was really hoping you would play
Last edited by Sommerswerd; March 18, 2012 at 03:52.
Well, there's been a major naval component between me and Bulgaria as well, though technological differences have prevented it from being quite as considerable as with Egypt and Carthage (though they did succeed in razing 5 coastal cities in the first turn of the war, and we did do a bit of naval positioning before I managed to get my modern fleet into their waters - even then it's been a component, though we didn't have time to build up a proper invasion fleet to turn it into a real factor).
The only other wars in the game were in the far west, basically, and I don't know what they did over there...
Yeah, France could get ships over there in 1 turn. Making it 2 turns wouldn't have changed that, though.
Also, you could mod in naval bombardment of tiles (destroy improvements or attack troops). That would greatly increase the value of a navy in the game. I believe that used to be in Civ3 or 2, so it's not new to the franchise, and I have it modded into my SP games currently, so it's quite doable, though perhaps would be unwelcomed by others...
Last edited by DNK; March 18, 2012 at 05:07.
Before signing up for new games you should pay attention to playing your turns in the games you are in.
Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012
When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah
Sure I don't dispute the possibility of there being a Naval component even with normal ship movement. However, faster ships make Navy more powerful, and thus more important, right?
The other thing to point out again, is that there is no difference in movement in a Mediterranean War in DoE (which used the same ship mod that DoB will use), and a Mediterranen battle in DoF, because its all coastal tiles, thus movement is Normal not double.
Another thing, is that the normal movement makes sense in a "smaller" map, (ie, a map that is an enlarged version of a smaller area). In DoF, the Map was only the Mediterranean, the map is of a smaller section of Earth, so it makes sense for the movement to be smaller... Just my perception of course
One last thought... You said someone razed 5 cities in the first turn of the War right? So then I am even less convinced that leaving the movement normal will have the effect you desire. IIRC, your concern centered around the idea that with double movement, your coastal cities would be too difficult to defend... Fleets could appear and raze multiple cities without you being able to react. But it seems that the same thing happened to you in DoF with normal movement right?Well I was in one of those, and the Naval aspect was basically Portugal coming out of nowhere and capturing 4 or 5 of my coastal cities without warning... again, this was with normal ship movement. So TBH, I just don't see how shortening the movement would protect you. You get ransacked from the sea regardless.
Now you're just exagerrating a little there
OK so based on your comments up to this point, I'll just forget about the ZOC thing and try looking into this Naval bombardment thing... But again, if we leave movement Normal, and add Naval Bombardment, I dont see this addressing your concern of the safety of coastal cities... so I dont see the point?? Anyway, I will still look into it
Ahhh, I see I am being mentioned here as example.
Interesting thing is that I was not even the aggressor in this war, Turkey and Persia declared war at me.
Well, there's been a major naval component between me and Bulgaria as well, though technological differences have prevented it from being quite as considerable as with Egypt and Carthage (though they did succeed in razing 5 coastal cities in the first turn of the war
And yes, the technology gap did not allowed for full-scale navy war in Black Sea this time as I was hiding from your destroyers and battleships and yet I managed to kill 5 of your workers, kept sabotaged the bridge to Tzarigrad trough the whole war and even kidnapped one worker in another sea operation and took him away to work in Russia
Also, I can assure you that the navy played almost decisive role in my war with Russia. At one point my fleet kept my invasion going and not forced to walk slowly in the open Russian steppe under attacks from their Knights and at another point my navy saved my army from destruction by bringing fresh reinforcements to the siege lines in the crucial moment. Also, the threat of my fleet lured the Russians in building massive ancient fleet to counter mine, while they should have been building land army, so at the end they had victory in the sea after 10-15 sunk triremes/galleys, but they did not lived long enough to enjoy their triumph, as my land forces were already unstoppable and their victorious fleet just died in the sea helpless when I took their last city
So yes, navy is nice, I like navies.
I find this very intriguing, though I have never played a modded MP game or a "diplo" game. It's also been awhile since I have started a game from the beginning and not just taken over a hapless civ for fun.
Seeing some of the talent here, I'd probably put myself in Tier 2 or 3, but I'd be happy with any start (hopefully with a civ I haven't played in MP yet).
Please sign me on! @ Ozzy will make sure i do not skip anymore turns
I don't know if I'll have much to say during the preliminaries here, but I'll throw my 2 cents in on double move ships. If we are going to let history unfold at Marathon speed (which sounds fun, actually), I think it may be a bit unrealistic to have naval movement doubled against that. Against the calendar, they will already be covering more ground than they would at Normal speed.
@ Toni - Sorry I forgot to add you to the list before. You're on there nowthis is going much faster than I anticipated.
@ Donovan - Whoa! Heavy hitter! Thanks for getting onboard Donovan... yea you really picked up a rotten apple in AMAZON Pitboss III... But you're still in it! A testament to your diplomacy skills
That's an interesting point about the Ship movement that I had not thought of. I think in DoE we were playing Epic speed not Marathon. So if we are playing Marathon I will have to test this out a little. In my tests so far I was mostly been testing the other parts of the Mod, trying to make sure they work, and trying to make double sure all the starts are survivable, playable, and have the right Tier balance.
Last edited by Sommerswerd; March 19, 2012 at 10:53.
Yeah, that "getting razed right after being the war instigator" thing was a bit... I guess funny.
Another idea, perhaps easier to implement than ZoC: water tiles within someone's cultural borders work like land tiles in that it takes 2MP to traverse each if you don't have OB.
[I have tested this in SP and can accomplish this with a very simple mod to routeinfos.xml and a little map editing]
note that I'm more worried about oil units: they could have hit Brazil from Morocco in 1T, maybe just outside of 1T.
Last edited by DNK; March 19, 2012 at 04:50.
To expound: You can edit "routeinfos.xml" to add another route called "coast" or whatever you like. Make it the same as roads, editing out the engineering boost, of course. Then, in the map editor, you just add this improvement to every water tile (it does not preclude fishing boats or whatever). It will be easier to simply use the "replace all" function in wordpad opening up the save file and replacing:
TerrainType=TERRAIN_COAST
With
RouteType=ROUTE_COAST
TerrainType=TERRAIN_COAST
And the same for ocean tiles. This is much faster
This makes it such that all water tiles have 2x movement effectively, but if you are war and cross into enemy territory it's only 1x. This way, ships can sail through friendly waters and open seas at 2x the rate, but if they want to enter into enemy territory, they lose the mobility edge (much as in land combat, they can be outmaneuvered easily and invasions slow considerably, plus it gives coastal civs a reason to build up culture for defensive purposes).
It may still be wise to reduce coastal travel. Regardless, then you just keep the ship stats as in the stock game, and they all have 2x movement in all water tiles.
This should work in MP as it alters very little. There are two issues, though:
1. currently, ships can pillage these routes.
2. currently, the game defaults to a road texture over each tile.
Issue 1 can be overcome with adding an option to workboats to rebuild them, and considering the route "unmined sea" whereas pillaging is in effect "mining the waters". Workboats would then perform an "unmine water" mission to rebuild the waterway. The problem here is that the AI won't really do this right, and appears to always build the route before building fishing boats... If it was a pure MP game, this wouldn't be an issue, but it isn't.
Issue 2 should be easy to overcome, but I suck at artwork editing in this game.
Last edited by DNK; March 19, 2012 at 05:49.
Well I think I must not play in this game, although I am very tempted indeed.
The only way would be if someone else would take over one of my other game positions.
How many games are you playing? Meh... What's one more game? The others will end eventually right?Given your description of what is involved (workboats 'mining' water tiles and ships pillaging invisible roads over water. Using workboats to 'mine' the water? That's not going to work IMO. It's too sloppy. I mean its fine for SP when its just yourself playing, but for MP? We need a better system then that.
OK, now we're getting somewhere
Fix idea #1:
Why don't we add a second row of coast on the East coast of Brazil or West coast of North Africa? That would address your specific concern without a change to the rest of the game, and without an additional Mod. Note- I already had to do this in Alaska/Bering Straits to resolve a bug where Barb pirate ships were appearing, stranded in the Ocean tiles in the Arctic circle. I also added some coast (and fish) already to North Africa to make the canary islands viable. So adding a little more coast to shield South America from a lightning invasion launched from Western Sahara is no biggie.
Fix Idea #2:
Or we could go with your original idea of reducing the movement of the post Modern Era ships. Now IMO, we dont need to reduce the movement of anything except Transports, becuase your main concern seems to be that an Invasion force could land and raze/capture a coastal city too quickly, right? So we could reduce the Transports movement speed to an amount that would make them too slow to get from West Africa to Brazil in 1 turn. I will have to test to see what that speed is exactly, but whatever it is, we can just set them to that. Maybe increase their cargo capacity to make up for the difference (ie a 50% reduction in speed= 50% increase in cargo capacity).
So that raises 2 questions:
1. Are either of these acceptable fixes to you?
2. If I make those edits, are you going to play? (Cause if not then I'm not doing it
Last edited by Sommerswerd; March 19, 2012 at 11:45.
Well, since Sommerswerd will be taking over my position in Chi, I am in..
Notes to everyone:
1. 3 slots left:whoohoo: Almost there!
2. Based on the comments of Calanthian, Donovan, and others, I am inclined to take out the double ship movement from the Mod (which should also address DNK's issue). I like it, but I will go with the majority on this one, if it means DNK will play. So If anyone objects, please say so now, so we can discuss, or forever hold your peace
3. I have added the Proposed Ruleset to the OP, which makes some important changes to the DoE rules, so check it out and comment when you have time
4. My testing has led me to add another tier based on the relative difficulty of the Western European starts. So there is a new Tier 1 description. I feel there is enough of a difference in the challenge faced to make a distinction between them.
Question for everyone-
Are folks ready to look at the Map so they can start thinking about which Civ they want, or is that unfair to the few players who have not signed up yet? I am thinking that the best way to go about this would be for people to just pick, first come, first served, so that the identity of the players is unknown, even to me. Since Robert has to assign the anonymous accounts anyway, we could then all get them at once so nobody knows who is who... Then we start
Thoughts?
Last edited by Sommerswerd; March 20, 2012 at 07:28.
I think to be fair we should just wait untill all spots have been filled.
Here is an update on the Mod:
I tested the different scenarios with the modified (hidden nationality) Explorer unit and modified (2 cargo) Privateer.
Privateer- Because the Privateer is a hidden nationality unit it can only carry other hidden nationality units, ie, Explorers, which is perfect, actually. I was worried that this wasn't going to work properly.
Explorer -Couple of things to report here
1. Obviously, as hidden nationality units, they can enter rival borders without OB and without declaring War
2. If they capture a Worker, the Worker assumes the true nationality of the Explorer
3. Even If you dont have OB with the nation you steal a Worker from, the worker still loses all his movement when he is captured, so the captured Worker stays inside your borders the turn after capture. At the beginning of the next turn, the worker is warped out of territory like normal.
4. Explorers can not capture rival cities unless you declare war. Explorers can enter unoccupied cities.
5. If war is declared while an Explorer is inside an unoccupied rival city the Explorer does not automatically capture the city. To capture the city, the Explorer must move outside of the city, and then move to capture it.
6. Explorers attack units, barbs and barb cities normally
I will post if I find anything new or out of the ordinary in testing.
I didn't realize Explorers even could capture workers, or attack units. Wouldn't it be wise to give it a non-combat flag?
Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012
When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah
It's intentional, and part of the Mod. The point is to mave Privateers more interesting and useful. Again the idea is to make Navy more interesting. It also is to make the colonization efforts more fun and complex with slaver/pirates running around stealing workers. It will add a great layer to our diplomacy and storytelling too.
Given that ZoC is a massive additional mod that would require tons of python scripting, I think this is simplerGiven your description of what is involved (workboats 'mining' water tiles and ships pillaging invisible roads over water
Believe I've mentioned that previously, but it might have only been in DoE2 (I've had this convo a lot over the past year).OK, now we're getting somewhere
As I suggested earlier, this would alleviate some of the issues, though it doesn't fix transports with 12MP... I see no reason to up the speed of modern units.Fix idea #1:
Why don't we add a second row of coast on the East coast of Brazil or West coast of North Africa? That would address your specific concern without a change to the rest of the game, and without an additional Mod.
In the end, though, I've decided to hold off on a 3rd game, final. 2 is enough for me to worry about daily, and I don't need a third now. I will be available to sub whenever G&H ends. I assume you will need a solid sub when that time comes. So, sorry to bother you all with this ship movement stuff when I'm not even playing
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