Reply With QuoteIt was pointed out repeatedly that it was ripe for abuse before it was originally brought in.
If the "Stand Your Ground" law prevents a prosecution here, then the law as written is ripe for abuse. It essentially makes it legal to take someone into a back alley, shoot them to death, and then call the police afterwards to report your act of self defense.
It was pointed out repeatedly that it was ripe for abuse before it was originally brought in.
You can already to that if you can make the evidence look like you were attacked.
The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
Baron O RIP.
I can't think of a particularly good reason to make it easier for people to murder other people.Originally Posted by rah
You're also making it easier for people to not get murdered and defend themselves.
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
I don't have the energy to debate the merits of gun control laws, so I'll simplyand say no more on that subject.
uhm, if anything, MSNBC was implying Zimmerman was paranoid... calling the cops for everything that looked suspicious to him
The law seems to be on a rather fine point with no real bearing on this case.
A duty to retreat if possible is not the question here. I have no doubt that in almost all unwitnessed shootings which come close to self defense the defendant can make a reasonable claim that retreat was not an option. The question here is whether the vigilante initiated the physical confrontation (by laying his hands on the kid or by drawing his weapon or otherwise placing the kid in fear for his safety) or the kid initiated the physical confrontation.
The only case where I can see a duty to retreat being raised is if there was detailed eyewitness testimony or videotape showing, e.g. the vigilante getting shoved by the kid and still refusing to walk away (which would make it self defense under the new law, but not under the old).
Last edited by KrazyHorse; March 20, 2012 at 16:44.
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
I dont get it. How can a bloody nose and a wet back be enuff to prove you where in fear for your life. Its just insane. Loseing a fist fight you ****ing started doesnt give you the right to draw a gun. Is there no such thing as overreacting in US law?
Maybe he is diabetic and the kid started assaulting him with the skittles?
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Since passage the number of "justifiable homicides" in Florida has tripled.
All you have to say is that you were afraid for your life, the concept of reasonable was deliberately left out.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Stand Your Ground Law: another reason to never move to Florida.
Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms
Granted that if you provide an easy way for somebody to commit murder in the guise of justifiable homicide then the murder rate is bound to go down.
He put his hand in his pocket and I felt I was in danger so I defended myself and shot him
In the current case, some innocent guy is quietly walking home. Some vigilante nutcase think that he's a potential criminal. Not wearing any kind of proof of legal authority, the innocent of course tries to either flee or defend himself. The vigilante is of course guilty of at least manslaughter. If he approached the innocent because of his color, it's plain murder.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg
Murder is a crime. If it isn't criminal then it isn't murder. That's why abortion isn't murder.
Do not take anything I say seriously. It's just the Internet. It's not real life.
I can understand how this is self defense. When you are armed with a gun and attack a stranger who then fights back, you pretty much gotta kill them or else they will kill you.
Ah, FOX news has identified the real victim of this crime, apparently its the NRA..
http://loyalopposition.blogs.nytimes...-later/?src=tp
Deleted
Last edited by kittenOFchaos; March 21, 2012 at 19:18.
Awww...
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Justifiable homicides are an extremely small portion of all homicides in the US (on the order of 2-3% depending on whether or not you include homicides committed by law enforcement officers). I'm not aware of any quantitative work on the subject, but one could imagine that there may well be a negative correlation between ease of arguing self-defense and homicides due to a deterrent effect. There is some (though not overwhelming) evidence that the death penalty has such an effect. It is convincing enough to have converted me from completely anti-death penalty to a relative agnostic.
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
So he may have said '****ing coons' on the police call... I didn't hear it when I first heard it, though. Funny how people told someone said something makes you hear it now.
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
I'm confused by this...are you saying you're in favor of things that discourage people from self-defense in a direct way?
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Personally, I like the duty to retreat laws for people in public places as they still allow someone to defend themselves but they don't give cover to hot heads who just want to show what a big man they are by pulling out a gun. Sadly, many states (even my own) have drastically reduced or even eliminated the duty to retreat.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Yes.
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KH just made the best post in this entire thread.
I am angry because someone in line in front of me at Subway ordered a sandwich that I do not like, even though it has no effect on me. This is how arguments against equal marriage rights sound.
And in particular you aren't opposed to the death penalty because you think it discourages people from defending themselves?
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
No.
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
Zimmerman's father speaks.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1716605.storyGeorge Zimmerman's father: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin
Robert Zimmerman spoke exclusively Thursday to the Orlando Sentinel
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
10:42 p.m. EDT, March 15, 2012
The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.
George Zimmerman, 28, has not been arrested, something that has put him and the Sanford Police Department at the center of a firestorm. Critics say Trayvon, who was visiting family from his home in Miami, was a victim of racial profiling.
Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.
George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.
"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."
The letter does not provide details about what happened Feb. 26 on a walkway in the gated community where George Zimmerman lives and where Trayvon was visiting. But it does challenge one basic assumption of the family's lawyers: that Zimmerman's intent when he got out of his sport utility vehicle was to confront Trayvon after calling police to report a suspicious person.
"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."
Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face.
No one disputes that Zimmerman called police from his SUV, then left it and encountered Trayvon on foot as the teenager returned from a 7-Eleven candy run.
Before an officer arrived, Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a fight, according to police, and witnesses heard one or both calling for help, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9 mm handgun.
Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.
That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.
"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "
It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.
The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.
"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.
He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.
In his letter, Robert Zimmerman wrote that what happened that night was "tragic … and very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family and the entire community have been forever changed."
George Zimmerman has not talked publicly about what happened, his father said, because that's the advice police gave him. Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.
Police on Tuesday turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.
Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.
Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.
"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."
The FDLE has received a letter from the State Attorney's Office asking agents to review the case, spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.
Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."
Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.
More than 400 people gathered Wednesday at a Sanford church, where black community leaders and Baltimore evangelist Jamal Bryant again demanded that Zimmerman be arrested.
Some of Trayvon's family members are expected to be a news conference this morning called by Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson, who is representing the family.
Another rally is scheduled for Monday outside the Seminole County Courthouse. And a call has been issued for people to rally March 26 during the Sanford City Council meeting.
Staff writers Susan Jacobson and Jeff Weiner contributed to this report. rstutzman@tribune.com or 407-650-6394.
Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:
“The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.
The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.
George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.
The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.
Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon. We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate.
The Zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. It would be greatly appreciated if the media would respect our privacy.”
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Did his mother say how smart and handsome he is?
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
News at 10!
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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