Why isn't this murder?

[loinburger]

But only if dragged from the car? If the guy approached in a non-threatening manner and the kid went off on him it's different?

It's only different if the guy wasn't instructed not to approach the kid. If a neighbor parks in my parking spot (my apartment complex has numbered spaces), and I ask him to move his car, and he starts to beat me, then I would feel justified in hacking him up with a machete (I don't own a gun). If a neighbor parks in my parking spot, and I call the police and ask them to tow the car or whatever, and they tell me to let them handle it, and then I confront the guy anyway and he starts to beat me, then I would still feel justified in hacking him up with a machete but would also acknowledge that I might have to face some consequences for the whole boondoggle.

[Wezil]

"Some consequences"

That's pretty broad. I'm not sure about the jurisdiction where this happened but it probably isn't a crime to not obey the instructions of a 911/police operator who may or may not be a police officer (perhaps Don can add to this). Stupid? Most assuredly but not necessarily criminal and most definitely not murder.

Again, we simply don't know what happened here, but incorporating the facts as we know them into my scenario and giving benefit of doubt to you on the civilian vs rent-a-cop issue, we have the amended scenario:

1. Gated community
2. Civilian on patrol notices an "unknown" individual
3. Civilian calls PD and is told to wait
4. Civilian decides to approach individual anyway
5. Kid becomes belligerent and aggressive without provocation (maybe he hates uniforms?)
6. Civilian doesn't fare well in the tussle and fears for their life
7. Kid gets shot

I think we all want to presume in the case before us that the kid was all wholesome and this redneck trigger happy hick decided to waste him for kicks. That may not be what happened.

[Al B. Sure!]

911 operators in Philly are not police officers. They also suck at their jobs. I don't know about a small community like this one.

And neighborhood watch don't wear uniforms.

[loinburger]

He might have been gung-ho enough to make his own uniform

[Wezil]

Actually, our fact situation doesn't include him being told to wait for police.

"If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order," said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family." [bold added]

That's a huge "if".

And a 911 operator is not a police officer so he's off the hook for the disobeying charge.

[Dr Strangelove]

Possibly the watchman tried to stop the teen and the teen told him to F.O. The watchman then tries to bar his way or to actually restrain him, then they fight. The problem is that neighborhood watches are voluntary organizations and generally don't have the authority to stop people or even interrogate them.
I don't understand how a person can fight someone, shoot them, and make a phone call all at the same time.

[KrazyHorse]

Yep, looks like murder.

Certainly smells like it, although the article is woefully sparse on details as to what happened in between the man "confronting" the kid and him shooting him.

[KrazyHorse]

I agree that we don't have all of the facts, but what hypothetical facts would justify homicide in this case? Short of the kid actually having a handgun or machete, that is.

Wait, in your world is it impossible to cause death or grievous bodily injury to another person without a weapon?

[loinburger]

Wait, in your world is it impossible to cause death or grievous bodily injury to another person without a weapon?

Read the ****ing thread

[KrazyHorse]

If a 911 operator says "don't confront the suspect," and then you confront the suspect and wind up shooting him, then at a bare minimum you're looking at something along the lines of negligent homicide. That would be like calling 911 to report a car accident, being told "don't move the accident victims," and then ignoring the operator for no good reason and breaking one of the victims' necks while moving them.

This post betrays total misunderstanding of the law as currently applied...

[KrazyHorse]

Read the ****ing thread

I have. Your posts get stupider and stupider throughout

[loinburger]

I have. Your posts get stupider and stupider throughout

Which part of "it is entirely justifiable to shoot somebody to prevent them from beating you to death" went over your head?

[KrazyHorse]

It may be stupid to walk through alby's neighborhood at night. However, if I am confronted by a gang of vicious hoodlums while doing so I have not, through my stupidity, voided my right to self-defense.

[BlackCat]

Just curious - why was he carrying a gun ? One thing is to have a gun in your drawer to fend off home invaders armed with artillery, but a mere sentry doesn't need it.

[loinburger]

It may be stupid to walk through alby's neighborhood at night. However, if I am confronted by a gang of vicious hoodlums while doing so I have not, through my stupidity, voided my right to self-defense.

I'll grant that if the guy asked the kid "what are you doing in this neighborhood" followed by the kid administering a vicious beating then the shooting was justified. I'll also grant that there is a 0% chance that this happened.