The Most Selfish Generation

[Dinner]

I do remember back in the stone age when I was interviewing and the question of working long hours would come up and you'd give a gung ho answer that you'd work as long as needed to get the job done.


Now when I'm interviewing the kids out of college they get a blank look on their face and start mumbling about work life balance. NEXT.... My my times have changed.

I ask that question too as it is good to let some candidates weed themselves out.

That said, I do feel a bit put on sometimes because those of us without kids are expected to work weekends or longer hours while the married guys skate out mumbling stuff about "my family" so the rest of us are left picking up the slack. Fortunately, **** rolls down hill and I now have underlings to do the field work on Saturdays or what not.

[Dinner]

Because they refuse to lie their way into your good graces and eventually disappoint you?

And I really think it's a tragedy you blame youth unemployment on the youth's work ethic when for all intents and purposes, entry level jobs by and large have not been created in 3 years.

The 00's were a lost decade. Total employment in 2010 was almost exactly the same as in 2000 but the wage per hour was slightly less and household net worth actually dropped $2000. Sadly, the median American household has a total net worth of just $68,000! I read that and was like WTF? Don't you people contribute to your 401Ks?

[gribbler]

Because they refuse to lie their way into your good graces and eventually disappoint you?

And I really think it's a tragedy you blame youth unemployment on the youth's work ethic when for all intents and purposes, entry level jobs by and large have not been created in 3 years.

Yeah, after the boomers wrecked the economy

[MRT144]

The 00's were a lost decade. Total employment in 2010 was almost exactly the same as in 2000 but the wage per hour was slightly less and household net worth actually dropped $2000. Sadly, the median American household has a total net worth of just $68,000! I read that and was like WTF? Don't you people contribute to your 401Ks?

The more I read that statement the more I'd like to throw it back in Rah's face as being an unfortunate comment he made because he's too old to remember 30 years ago.

[MRT144]

And you need to look at these new entrants lives and life experience in regard to work;

Their parents, boomers worked and said "do this and you'll have a good job, do that and you'll be able to retire" and at worst they have either been flat out lies or at best severe miscalculations in judgement. Working long hours and putting in the time and half sure yielded poor results in wealth creation and stability for their parents. I see my dad put in 80-100 hour weeks and make 3-4 times my salary but he's still deeply in debt, and still 10 years away from retirement at his current income level. And he's 57. Here I am at 27 saying, why do all this **** if it doesn't net you any more enjoyment in life, any more quality of life. Imran posted a great article on his Facebook about this;

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...st-generation/

Are we mad? Yes, we are mad basically because we made the “responsible choice.” The irresponsible choice was to do what some of my classmates did and party their way out of one semester of college. The irresponsible thing to do was to major in English and try your hand at writing novels rather than go to engineering school or law school, which leads directly to a career. We made the safe investment, and every adult we every met told us it was a safe investment. There are no downsides to going to college, except that there are. Now, in this recession, there are no jobs at all. The number of jobs created in August was zero, and the work force grows every day. We, on the other hand, still have this debt.

[SlowwHand]

My dad died at 56, about 6 months before he planned to retire. All the time on the road and working weekends didn't really pay off, IMO.

[MRT144]

My dad died at 56, about 6 months before he planned to retire. All the time on the road and working weekends didn't really pay off, IMO.

I worry about this with my dad. And here Rah is chiding young people for not being willing to kill themselves for his benefit.

[SlowwHand]

I'm 56 now and I preach moderation in all things and balance in life.

[rah]

Did you see the recent article saying that men make the same as they did in the 50's taking into account inflation?

I know what life was like for my father. He could work for 4 months of the year and pay off his entire education. Then work for a couple years and buy a house.

Life was so hard for the boomers.

God, you do just make crap up. By the way, the earliest BB turned 14 in 1960 so what does the 50's have to do with BBs working.

Your father must have been quite wealthy to able to buy a house in a couple of years. My first job out of school (in 79) paid less then 10k a year. 4 months of that wouldn't make a dent in school debt. Yeah, I was just rolling in cash.

I can't believe people allow you to teach children.

[rah]

Because they refuse to lie their way into your good graces and eventually disappoint you?

And I really think it's a tragedy you blame youth unemployment on the youth's work ethic when for all intents and purposes, entry level jobs by and large have not been created in 3 years.

I said I'd work the hours and did. That's how I advanced my career. Youth today think it's owed them. Your comment about disappointing shows your lack of work ethic.

But I will agree that opportunity is tougher now. I feel for my daughter and other youths looking, but if you think you're owed a career before you do a lick of work, youi're sadly mistaken.

I've been interviewing people for 2 entry level positions and have been quite dissapointed with the quality of applicants that are fresh out of college and their opinion that they should be offered a job that you have to work less than 40 hours a week and get paid more than they're worth. One kid immediately dismissed our offer when informed that he would have to work in a open style cube. I'm sure he's still unemployed.

[MRT144]

I said I'd work the hours and did. That's how I advanced my career. Youth today think it's owed them. Your comment about disappointing shows your lack of work ethic.

But I will agree that opportunity is tougher now. I feel for my daughter and other youths looking, but if you think you're owed a career before you do a lick of work, youi're sadly mistaken.

I've been interviewing people for 2 entry level positions and have been quite dissapointed with the quality of applicants that are fresh out of college and their opinion that they should be offered a job that you have to work less than 40 hours a week and get paid more than they're worth. One kid immediately dismissed our offer when informed that he would have to work in a open style cube. I'm sure he's still unemployed.

I said I'd work the hours and did. But you know what, I wouldnt be willing to work long hours if there were no guarantee of job security and pay for those hours. What is the point in doing so? Why give it your all if at the end of the day you could be shitcanned because someone 3 levels up needs to make a budget? you you're complaining that young people don't want to be exploited? the temerity! Ultimately you don't respect youth, and it shows. They feel owed about as much as you promised them a degree would get them.


And I doubt that the one that turned down your offer is unemployed if you made him an offer in the first place.

[notyoueither]

I offered a job to a young person looking for entry level into the IT industry. The position would have been piece work to start and would pay $25 to $30 per hour.

He said he didn't get out of bed for $25 an hour.

[rah]

That's the difference. We thought it was proving ourselves and earning it.

But yes, eventually I wanted to cut back but after you get married and have a child. Being secure (and yes i'll agree that security is less now) was more important. Now that I'm on the tail end and my daughter is out of school, I can afford to work less so I do. But those that do a good a job and will work hard will have an easier time finding a job. There are some going obsolete careers where hard work and talent isn't enough anymore.

[Dinner]

I said I'd work the hours and did. That's how I advanced my career. Youth today think it's owed them. Your comment about disappointing shows your lack of work ethic.

But I will agree that opportunity is tougher now. I feel for my daughter and other youths looking, but if you think you're owed a career before you do a lick of work, youi're sadly mistaken.

I've been interviewing people for 2 entry level positions and have been quite dissapointed with the quality of applicants that are fresh out of college and their opinion that they should be offered a job that you have to work less than 40 hours a week and get paid more than they're worth. One kid immediately dismissed our offer when informed that he would have to work in a open style cube. I'm sure he's still unemployed.

I agree he's probably still unemployed but I sure did want that office with a door so I was really happy the day I got a promotion, moved out of cubical-ville, and got an office. Sure, it was/is still in the middle but now my dream is to get the corner office but those seem very hard to come by.

[SlowwHand]

I now have an office where one side is a window. I thought that I'd made it. It gets hot, so I often close the blinds.

[MRT144]

That's the difference. We thought it was proving ourselves and earning it.

But yes, eventually I wanted to cut back but after you get married and have a child. Being secure (and yes i'll agree that security is less now) was more important. Now that I'm on the tail end and my daughter is out of school, I can afford to work less so I do. But those that do a good a job and will work hard will have an easier time finding a job. There are some going obsolete careers where hard work and talent isn't enough anymore.

How is finishing college not proving and earning it? Why do you make that a requirement of employment if on top of it all you have to prove yourself even more? And for less pay?

[MRT144]

Its ****ing absurd and cruel

"Yes, you have to have a college degree to get a job, but then you have to really prove yourself by doing more work for less money than anyone else at the company"

How many hurdles do you want to put in the way as a barrier to entry so you can smugly claim "kids these days, they feel they're owed something".

[rah]

A chimp could finish most colleges. We didn't have requirements for employment, we were just happy to get a job. Even back then jobs weren't easy to get. They just didn't give them out to everyone.

[DinoDoc]

Lazy whiners vs curmudgeons

[MRT144]

A chimp could finish most colleges. We didn't have requirements for employment, we were just happy to get a job. Even back then jobs weren't easy to get. They just didn't give them out to everyone.

\

Wouldnt you be pissed if your option after incurring 40k in debt was being a sycophant to the director of technology for 40k a year?

[rah]

yep its one of those aging side effects.

[rah]

\


Wouldnt you be pissed if your option after incurring 40k in debt was being a sycophant to the director of technology for 40k a year?

I have to laugh. That's what I did, but now I am the IT Director. And I did it for 9,700 a year.

[Ming]

How is finishing college not proving and earning it?

Its ****ing absurd and cruel

"Yes, you have to have a college degree to get a job, but then you have to really prove yourself by doing more work for less money than anyone else at the company"

How many hurdles do you want to put in the way as a barrier to entry so you can smugly claim "kids these days, they feel they're owed something".

What a riot... "How cruel, I finished college so you OWE me a big money job". "It's my right, you PROMISED me one" "I won't have to work hard, because since I finished college, the money will automatically just roll in" HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA

Getting a college degree means the same thing now as it did back then... It qualified you to have a chance at a real job. Nobody promised us big paying jobs, the degree just gave us the opportunity. I also got a job that just paid under 10 grand when I graduated. That sure as hell wasn't enough to cover the cover the cost of education and buy a home in 4 years. I had to work hard, and prove myself before the money started rolling in. It took years.

It's just funny to think that some people think that since they have a degree, they should automatically be given the job of their dreams.
My daughter graduated two springs ago... she tried very hard to get a job in the industry she studied for. The job market sucked. She ended up being a bar tender, and took a very low paying entry level marketing position, having to work two jobs to help pay off her college debt. But she kept trying and working hard to get the kind of job she really wanted.
And now, in two weeks, she will start in an entry level position at the company of her dreams. She will still have to work two jobs at first, but eventually, if she works hard, she will have the career she studied and worked for. She understood that a college degree was simply one stepping stone on her path, and not some automatic key to success.

Like me, she had to take a low paying job coming out of college as a first step. After that, it required hard work.

So whine all you want how you are owed a great job simply because you spent the money to go to college... it helps prove a lot about you

[Jon Miller]

I have read that those who do more work end up always doing more work. That it doesn't directly relate to pay. That it become the 'expected' and not the 'bonus'.

And Ming's and RAH's ~10k is meaningless... that is actually ~40k in today's dollars (although they wouldn't have ipods). (I could be wrong about how old they are)

JM
(note some areas like finance and physics and medicine require more work, I am meaning relative)
(also, my understanding is that in the current climate 40k a year is a good job for someone who hasn't done internships/etc)

[rah]

I'd let someone else look it up but I'm guessing 9,700 30 years ago is probably pretty close to 35-40 currently.

And i'll agree that there are a few degrees/schools that let's you deserve a leg up on others.

[Ming]

I have read that those who do more work end up always doing more work. That it doesn't directly relate to pay. That it become the 'expected' and not the 'bonus'.

Read all you want... for the people I know, the ones that worked harder, ended up getting paid more and advancing quicker. Those that didn't, lagged behind or were eventually fired.

And Ming's and RAH's ~10k is meaningless... that is actually ~40k in today's dollars (although they wouldn't have ipods). (I could be wrong about how old they are)

I just used one of those inflation calculators, and my starting pay out of college translates to just $34K a year in current dollars. That's 15% below the $40K a year that MRT was whining about, and only about 55% above what is considered the poverty line in the US

[Ben Kenobi]

God, you do just make crap up. By the way, the earliest BB turned 14 in 1960 so what does the 50's have to do with BBs working.

At least for the men, the boomers have reverted living standards to the way things were back then. That's the situation the kids are dealing with now.

Your father must have been quite wealthy to able to buy a house in a couple of years.

The house was cheap, 50k IIRC. Two incomes one nurse, one draftsman plus teaching and tutoring on the side added up. Took him five years from when he moved in to owning it outright. The land took somewhat longer.

My first job out of school (in 79) paid less then 10k a year.

To put it in perspective, that was the equivalent of 40k a year back then.

Do you pay entry level college kids 40k a year starting salary today?

4 months of that wouldn't make a dent in school debt. Yeah, I was just rolling in cash.

Well, I've managed to pay my school debt off several years ago. And I'm not making 40k a year, that's for sure. It cost me roughly 5k a year for tuition to finish up. Half of what I paid at UBC was scholarship funds, some of it was put aside beforehand, and the rest through working.

I don't own anything, but I don't have 40k in student loan debt hanging over my head.

I can't believe people allow you to teach children.

'allow'? I'm one of their best folks.They recruited me.

[Jon Miller]

My understanding that in things like engineering, the biggest difference is internships/etc. Those who get a basic 4 year degree without internships struggle to find a ~40k a year job. Those who do plenty of internships might take 5 years to graduate (or might not...), but should have job offers in the 60-70k a year range.

What do more senior people who hire think about the relative value of internships versus a degree?

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I've been interviewing people for 2 entry level positions and have been quite dissapointed with the quality of applicants that are fresh out of college and their opinion that they should be offered a job that you have to work less than 40 hours a week and get paid more than they're worth. One kid immediately dismissed our offer when informed that he would have to work in a open style cube. I'm sure he's still unemployed.

Seriously? I've done many different jobs over the years. I'd be thrilled with a job that I could actually sit down and do.

[Ben Kenobi]

I offered a job to a young person looking for entry level into the IT industry. The position would have been piece work to start and would pay $25 to $30 per hour.

He said he didn't get out of bed for $25 an hour.

Clearly I'm applying for the wrong kind of jobs...

I might get that for some of my contract work, but that's only because I've got most of the work already done. It's simple for me to update stuff I already have.

Is it programming, NYE?