Balkan Breakup Scenario - Creation Thread

[Hans99]

Balkan Breakup Scenario

Creation Thread

[Hans99]

At last, i start a thread for my ever work Baby. By the way i think it schould be a ToT Scenario, giving me maximal creation possibilities. My thoughts about it are still very crude so i hope for some feedback:

-> The Scenario should go over the Time Period from 1990 to 2008

That's the first problem, do i make several scenarios with independet files or do i stick to one big Scenario ? I'd rather choose one big scenario, but this leads to the next problem:

-> How can i simulate the Breakup of the Nation properly

Just imagine you start the game 1990 as ruler of Yugoslavia, everything is all fine, just some small clashes with minor forces. Everything is under your command and just fine.

Then the first country breaks away, then the next you just fougth ( Like bosnia that fought 1991 with the serbs against croats and just 1992 against serbs as independent state )with and so on. The situation should be at least annoying. And i don't want to use the alliance princip but i rather think about an adhoc loss of parts of your state via events, but this means i have to made different starter files...

-> If the Breakup occured everything is fine, we got 7 Civ's + Barbarians for special roles and will see how yougoslavia goes.

-> Units are also easy, with focus on ground forces, cause there was no big sea war.

-> UN Units as domain three stuff something

-> I still need a map, i got an old CIV FW medium size map here from an older scen but it is way to small. My gigamap should have ca. x130 x y250, including pieces of surrounding countries, and the italic coast.

-> Interesting missions depending of which state you play

-> The techtree is rather military oriented 'cause in the beginning the states just had territorial armies that developed to real armies


But the biggest problem is to show the breakup of the state. I think this can be done by cleverly using the EVENTS and paradropping units ? in some way or is there a possibility to change city owners without units ?


So far till today...

[McMonkey]

I will do some reading up on the history of the conflict and see what ideas I can come up with. This will be a complex one to build but I guess solving all these problems is part of the fun of scenario building. What would the playable nation be, or would it be possible to play as several?

I should be able to make a start on planning the map from monday when I can make use of a photocopier. I usually make an A3 copy from the Times Atlas of the World and then draw a grid onto it. It is then possible to adjust the dimensions of the map quite easily. I got the Atlas from my neighbours who were chucking it out. It is like tombstone in size and is quite old (1981) but the maps are so detailed due to their size and not most of the geography stays the same until the end of the cold war anyway.

[Hans99]

Playable civ's will be:

- Serbs
- Croats
- Bosniaks
- Slovenes
- Kosovoars ( In Partialunion with Albania )
- Macedonians
- U.N. / Nato
- West Bosnia / Vojvodina / Others ( Barbarians )

Problem will arise with independence of Montenegro in 2006, because this separation should also be shown i some way but is over the 7 + 1 Civs. Maybe turn the cities over to some barbarian neutral state?

Every nation should be playable. But to get this to work, there must be different starting files for every nation. I will solve this problem via a .BAT file, like in Eurasian wars.

So if you for example choose Croatia you will start with some randomly generated units and blockades to resemble the "LOG revolution 1990", where Croats blocked the streets with logs and some shooting occured at a soccer match. Then you get full power over the croatian part of yugoslavia ( Serb cities will suddenly change to croatian ) after their declaration of independence, at which point you are free to choose the fate of your young nation, maybe even conquer serbia for example.


This with the Map would be really, really great McMonkey. I already bought a Roadmap of Yugoslavia 3 years ago, but never started doing the map. So thank ya already , if ya could need the roadmap just tell.

And for the reading of the history, good luck, it is damn long but very interesting, the english wiki article is really great for this. The german one sucks...

I will do a crude timeline tomorrow in which we can insert everything that should be inserted or is interesting anyway via events.txt.

[Arthedain]

Seems like an interesting scen. I hope you can manage to simulate the different partitions in a playable way.

[McMonkey]

I remember Zvonimir Boban's flying kick at the policeman during the match between Dinamo Zagreb and Red Star Belgrade. At the time of the breakup I was just getting interested in world events (I would have been about thirteen years old) and I started collecting a magazine called 'Raids' which covered military units around the world and had some excellent articles on the war. I have just dug out these magazines and found some good stuff on the sieges of Sarajevo, Osijek and Vukovar as well as the Serbian land grab in eastern Bosnia. I will read through these as well as the Wikipedia article. You can't rely on Wikipedia for some things but for building a scenario it is ideal!

One thing to consider when planning the scenario is the balance between gameplay and historical accuracy. It is OK to sacrifice accuracy to get the gameplay right. You are never going to make something that is 100% accurate with the Civ2 engine and if you try too hard you could end up with a boring game. If people enjoy playing your game then they will learn about the subject. Playing good historical scenarios always gives me a good sense of the importance of geography and the key cities. Having played the scenario I have a much better understanding when reading about the history.

[Juggler]

you could break this into 2 scenarios - one covering the war 1991-1995 and the other the kosovo problem and the conflict in Macedonia in 1999.

This way you could chose civs for the first war:
Serbia
Bosnian Serb republic
Krajina (all allies)
Croatia
UN/NATO
Bosnia muslims
and possibly Slovenia which was only involved in the 10 day war (border conflict), leaving out Macedonia which wasn't involved in this war

[Hans99]

@ McMonkey

Yeah balance is important. You should have your freedom as a leader, but a light, lets say grid should be available giving historical Background and information ( Also Event Units aka Muslim Brigades ), and in the end to say a final ground Invasion of Nato forces as last test.


@ Juggler

Interesting thougt, but i think it is rather tricky. For example, If i conquered back whole yugoslavia as serbs till 1995 ( Including Macedonia ), i would have a conflict with the Kosovo situation later.

Also i want to keep some part of freedom with the seperatist states.You should for example choose macedonia as state and why not establish the former great macedonia and assault kosovo an serbia.

the krajina/srpska guys should be serbs i think. I know the serb army was not fighting in Krajina directly but it supported it with what it could.

As for slovenia i think i will let it in the game for who knows what Could have happened, if serbia managed to pull of croatia and go back into slovenia ?

[McMonkey]

Got the photocopy of the map today and have the grid, cities, rivers, and mountains marked out. I just need to work out the dimensions you require then I can start working with the map editor. You said about x130 x y250. The paper map I have made is 33cm E-W and 28cm N-S. The map I built for Fortress Europe etc... is about the right shape and is 143 E-W and 225 N-S which is roughly the size you are looking for. Bear in mind though that this map covers the whole of Europe on a fairly good scale. By just focusing on Yugoslavia it will be pretty huge! That would be fine for PBEM games but if you intend this to be for single player you may find the AI struggles with the large distances. The map will be the foundation for the scenario so it would be essential to get it right from the start. If you haven't already done so I would suggest you look at some of Techumseh's scenarios (such as Frederick the Great or Warlords of China) as an example of how the AI copes better on a smaller map. Your shout either way

[Hans99]

Your shout either way

Man, ya're fast . Yeah 143 x 225 is just best. More room to rock and be tactical, i like tactical ongoing, not just sticking to the roads but have some more clever thoughts on my approach like in the "Herbstnebel" scen. Can't wait to see the map...

[McMonkey]

Bear in mind that the "Herbstnebel" scenario was designed with the Germans in mind, not six or seven different nations. If you want the AI to be at all challenging you will need to do a hell of a job with the events, especially if you want all the nations to be playable. It might be an idea to pick one nation to focus on first of all, for argument sake Croatia, and use all the event space to help out the Serbian AI. You could later on make other events files for each nation you want to be playable. That would be a lot of work but its the only way I can see the AI being of any use on such a huge map. I have learned this from bitter experience. Its good to be ambitious but you don't want to start something that is so big you will never get it finished!

Anyway, if its a huge map you want then its a huge map you will get

[Hans99]

You're right. It WILL be hell of a work, but in the end this is the thing that makes scenario design interesting. To get the things to work. I will make a setup for every state. By doing this, maybe i can get around some problems with Macedonians and Montenegro.


At the moment i am working on the Serb - UNITS File, but i am just halfway done. Altough i limited sea and air units, the Nato/UN units are eating space, i hope i can get 'em done tomorrow.

Tell me how much Beer i owe you, when the map is done

Next Thing i thougt about is the timeline, to be aproppriate to the size of the map and my objective to be a tactical game i thougt about a day timeline with seasons summer, fall/spring, winter where every 120 -180 days the batchfile for season is run end day counter reset. So the Counter on will read
for example 78 days in summer 1991 instead of July 1991.

Concerning huts i either keep them and choose the trigger technologies carefully as to prevent too many barbs popping up or stick to the roman scen principle with barbarian units as cities, that create a random event.


Main Timeline ( very Crude, improve a lot ):

- Jan 1990 Last congress of delegations of republics which
"never" came together again
- May 1990 Violent soccer game between Zagreb and Belgrade
- May 1990 Croatia sets Serbs in Croatia to minority state
- August 1990 Krajina Serbs referendum, log revolution, police clashes
- September 1990 Autonomy of Krajina region, armed clashes
- December 1990 Referendum of Independence Slovenia, Setup of home army,
JNA to disarm territorial armies
- April 1991 ZNG of Croatia to replace Crotian Territorial Army
- June 1991 Slovenia declares Independence -> 10 Day War
- June 1991 Croatia declares Independence, Battle of Dalmatian Coast
between Croats and Krajina Serbs starts
- August 1991 Battle of the Barracks in Croatia, Home Army seizes JNA
Barracks
- August 1991 Battle of Vukover, Croatia attacked by JNA
- October 1991 JNA withdraws from Slovenia
- Octobre 1991 Battle of Dubrovnik, Montenegro attacks Croats
- November 1991 Fall of Vukovar, Bosnians still fighting as part of JNA
- Decembre 1991 Krajina declares Independence
- Jan 1992 Slovenia and Croatia aknowledged as states by Europe

[curtsibling]

This is potentially a great scenario, with the various breakaway states all trying to gain power...

All that coldwar-era hardwar made by Gareth will come in most handy here...

If you need any help, let me know, and I will do my best.

[McMonkey]

How many turns will the scenario last? This is another area where it is very easy to get carried away. Less can be more! If you make it too long nobody will ever finish it. I would be interested in what others think but I would guess that a scenario of between 100-200 turns would be a good target. That's just an estimate though. Just playing Devils advocate here

Huts are a tricky one. I am using them in the Ancient Greek scenario I am building but I have not used them in any of my modern scenarios. If you do decide to use huts it is essential to get the planning right from the start as it is quite fiddly. William Keenan's Barbarian Paper is the essential guide to this.

Regarding the map, it might take me a while to get it finished and I won't guess at a completion date because it always takes me much longer than I think. No beers required in payment. I enjoy the craft of building maps. It gives me a real sense of achievement when they are finished and it will be great to see those fine units come to life on it!

[Hans99]

Well, seems intentons diverge here. Let's see how we can find a solution for this.

I could go for a weekly Timeflow aka. giving a year 52 Turns, or go up to 2 week turns as to have ca. 200 Turns in 8 years. Gotta experiment on that. But thanks for pointing on that McMonkey.

The Units so far:

My Question, do we have the same problem with the Knight, Musketeer Slot in ToT as in MGE ?

[McMonkey]

As far as I know ToT still suffers from the Knight/Musketeer problem but I might be wrong. With regards to the time span, its your scenario, make it as long or as short as you like. I am just playing devils advocate as I am also inclined to go for the maximum possible in every parameter. It is worth considering movement rates alongside the game length / time per turn. You don't want a situation where it takes a mechanized unit a hundred years to drive across the country or a situation where to have accurate movement for time rates and units have extremely high movement factors (for example if a unit could move 50 squares along roads). You need to find a good compromise between accuracy and gameplay here!

[Hans99]

Movement rates i tested in my german gigamaps, and i went for a road mutiplier of 3, but gave the tanks a movement rate of ca. 5 and Infantry ca. 2 . I will see how this fits with the timeline in this Scenario, but think this will fit fairly well. One option could be to replace airport with train station as to allow fast train transport.

Tomorrow i will be back at job, so the next time i will be a little bit reduced concerning my ability to scenario design, but don't worry, this isn't the only long term rpoject here on Apolyton.

[curtsibling]

I recently tested the knight/musketeer bug in my current scenario, and noticed no trouble.

But as extra insurance I would make both slots an air or barb unit, or if they must be used,
have the units with the 'air superiority' role, which cancels out the bug on the AI build list.

[techumseh]

But the biggest problem is to show the breakup of the state. I think this can be done by cleverly using the EVENTS and paradropping units ? in some way or is there a possibility to change city owners without units ?

If you can find a place to park some settler units where they can't be attacked (and can't move, eg. on an ocean square), it is a good way to "create" a new civ. Using events, create the new units next to cities you want to take over. Pay attention to the order in which the civs move so that event-created units aren't wiped out before they can capture the cities they're supposed to. Take a look at "Red October" for an example of this.

[McMonkey]

I will make a start on the map at work today providing things are quiet. Will begin with the tedious job of "drawing" the grid on the map editor to match the one I have on the paper map. You will need to let me know which terrain types you want to use. I guess there is no use for deserts and glaciers in Yugoslavia so you could use these slots for other things. Here are some ideas:

Suburbs/Villages
Useful for big cities like Belgrade and Sarajevo, especially on such a large map. I could use a suburb terrain to mark city locations and you could add the suburbs as you see fit when I hand over the map.

Defenses/Trenches/Minefields
See Techumseh's Market Garden scenario for a smart way to represent minefields. Also bridges etc...

Resource squares (Trade, Food or Shields)
I am using this method in my latest scenario to guarantee that cities have the resources to match their size and importance. This way you are less reliant on the randomly placed special resources and you won't get tiny villages thriving while major cities struggle.

Railbed
Not sure if there is a need for railroads in this scenario, but if there is you will need to plan for them from the start. See Techumseh's Red October scenario if you need an example.

It will be a while before I begin to add these type of terrains so you have time to think it through. To begin with I will be drawing the coastlines and plotting city locations.

[McMonkey]

Here is the progress on the map so far. I still won't jink it by estimating the completion date, but it is going well so far. The white box in the top picture shows the standard map zoom to give you a rough idea of scale. The bottom zoomed out picture shows where I have marked all the major towns and cities. The grid squares are 8x8 and the whole map works out to about 28,000sq, plenty big enough I will make the Danube and other major rivers inpassable oceans apart from major road and rail crossings. If you want any other crossing points you can always add them later.

[Hans99]

I am really impressed

Cheers to this great map. I love the coastline...

I am working in munich at the moment, my colleagues at moment are a bosnian, married with a serb woman and a slovenian with a croatian girl. Gonna try to catch some stories 'bout the war from them.

More to come soon, got some time till monday, 'cause our construction material somehow, disappeared... ( Polish Case ) including truck driver ?!

Cheers for today my Scenario League Compadres

[Hans99]

@ McMonkey

As for map terrain, just go forth with grassland, mountains, hills, forest and rivers, i will add special terrain over the progress.


I am at the moment making a resource chart. The big chrome ressources in Kosovo might be of some interest ( As it were for the USA ).

Also i am looking for some scenario creation info for Test of Time. Were there some other ressources beside the scenario league design tips ?

[McMonkey]

Will do. Added most of the (ocean) rivers the other day. Its all starting to come together as I had hoped.

[Hans99]

Update on Units so far...

I am still busy with the TERRAIN1.BMP

There will be semi seperate tech trees for the warrying parties,
so some techs will be available for everyone.

Musketeer and knight slot problem have been solved now.

Units, that are available for all will include masks as seen in curt's EURASIAN WARS scenario. Just making my
terrain and my city graphics before i will come to the masks.



Engineers
In the settler slot,
to prevent a too over active AI development over the scenario

National Infantry and Hvy. Infantry
For every party of the war.
The standard infantry for defense, the heavy infantry for attack. Movement will be 1,
roadmultiplier 4-5 gonna test it out.
Maybe fractal movement will be the solution for some things, as showing more combat ready troops.
It will be difficult to use Srpska, Krajina and Bosnian Croat units, because i want them to be produced only in specific cities, maybe hex editing will come in handy here, i don't know...


Aircraft Carrier
Don't know if i should include these, is the AI still tricky with loading these in TOT ?
As in the beginning only the NATO forces, which are not for play, will have and eventually use them.

Mujaheddin
We all know 'em. If you play Bosnia and want to go towards a fundamental muslim development
you can get the chance via techtree (Fundamentalism )

Militas
Partisan makeover

Armed Police
Standard defensive unit for most young states in the beginning.

B-52 Bomber
Makes big Holes

NATO Airborne Inf.
Prepare for some surprises

Mines
Also do not know if i should include these. Paradrop ability is no good choice,
and the AI cannot use them effectively, as they cannot move. I only sense some use of them with Events.
Maybe i should let them out completly ?

SU-100
Mobile artillery at the beginning of the war

2S1
Mobile artillery

152mm Gun
Towed artillery

122mm Gun
standard artillery, altough 76mm guns and rockets were also widely used

BM-21
Rocket artillery

Mercenaries
Expensive but effective and don't need any research

Paratroops
Expensive but useful

Special Forces
Some special abilities, will be nice for making the enemy angry

Chetniks
Bearded pro serbian milita

Arkan's Tigers
Serbian militia hools

HOS
Croatian right wing movement troops, very effective in the beginning

Freight
No landing boat, just a freighter

Tornado
NATO Bomber

F-15
NATO Fighter

Apache
They might be annoying for the serb troops

Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate
available for all parties

Submarine
Also do not know if i should include these, as there was no big sub war in the conflict.
And i do not have the intention for a
great Serb vs. NATO sea warfare ( Would be different if we would have more than 7 Civ's and even more units ).
So i think i sould drop em ?

West Bosnian Infantry
Pro Serb bosnian troops of an independent area under leader Fikret Abdic

Cruise Missile
We all love and hate em

NATO Infantry
Will come after you if you are greedy

Diplomat Slot
Do not know how to use this slot, first thought as recon like in the HERBSTNEBEL Scen ?

Mafia
Local mafia and crime structures were an important force in the war,
they will be depicted by some special spy abilities.

Leo I
In the caravan slot, Maybe i will use the caravan slot and move the Leo I, is there anything special about the caravan slot ?

Trade Truck
They might be more powerful than you think, cause money is big time here

SAM Tank
NATO SP-SAM

M-109
NATO Artillery

MARS
NATO Rocket Artillery

UN Troops
Expect them to be always annoying

M-84A
Yugoslavian tank, fairly powerful. In the beginning just available for the serbs, yugoslav national army.

T-55AM
Outdated tank, but still effective, Croats get them early.

T-34/85
Vintage WW II Tank, but in the hands of experienced troops still effective.

M-80A
IFV of Yugoslavia

BTR-60
APC of Yugoslavia

Bradley
NATO IFV

M-18 & M-36
Vintage WW II tank hunters, but still many were in use. I think i should fuse them into one unit,
as there were no big untis of these tanks but many small groups of them in infantry units.

M-90 Vihor
M-84 Update, late after 1995

SA-9
Yugoslav SP-SAM

Praga
SP AA Gun truck, but also "very" effective in the ground support role with its twin 30mm Cannons.

Refugees
Do not know how to use them exactly ? Flags ???

BRDM-2
Yugoslav recon vehilce

Barracks
Barracks for the battle of the barracks. Joker field, also used for logs in the log revolution and other things

Immortals, 5th Korps
Stoud Bosnian Bihac defenders, strong brigades

Muslims
Bosnian supporters, have to see how well they fit with the mujaheddin concept ?

Tiger Brig. Infantry & Tank
Croatian Elite Brigade, use them careful, for as they grow in size with time.

Gazelle
Yugoslav attack helicopter

Galeb
Light assault aircraft

Orao
Light assault aircraft

MiG-21
Medium fighter

MiG-29
Modern fighter, only available for serbia, altough the croatians and bosnians will get the chance to grab some of 'em

Bunker
Border, real bunkers, city fortresses...

M1A1
NATO Tank

F-16
NATO Fighter, also do not know if i should include these, as i think the f-15 fits good for most of the NATO airforce.

Barbarian General
Generals also give good bounty


So far for today, i can't wait to see the map

[McMonkey]

Haven't really had the chance to do any work on the map for the past few weeks due to working a very early shift and being very tired in the evenings. This has come to an end now so I should be able to make some progress. I can send you what I have so far to help you make plans etc...

[Hans99]

Yeah, send what you got. Will be really helpful

[McMonkey]

Here is the map as it is now. I am working my way through box by box (top left - right and so on) until I have added all the mountains, forests, minor rivers and lowland and also to blur out the grid. When I am finished I will also include a save game with all the towns and cities on it. It might take a while to finish the terrain as it is a bit tedious and I have to be in the right frame of mind. If you need it quickly please let me know and I will try and up the tempo

[Hans99]

Great , Thanks, this will help a lot for crude testing.

And don't hurry, "festina lente" as the romans would say. I were on holiday the last 2 Weeks but now work's getting started again, so i won't have a great time for my beloved Civ 2.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, looking at the unit pic I noticed two things: 1) the UN vehicle looks like a Warrior IFV and 2) the unit flags needed some work. So I did a little work and here's a revised UN unit pic, plus unit flags/logos, free of charge! (Not that I'd ever demand money for these kinds of services, unless Civ V goes back to bitmaps and Sid Meier wants me to help :P )

Sorry I didn't include the West Bosnian logo here, but it looks like it's basically the Bosnian flag with a gold boundary, so it shouldn't be hard to make...