[serious] OTF Moderation input

[Robert Plomp]

So, we've new mods and owners around here.
No changes have been made to rules and moderation attitude, etc.

We'd like it to receive some input from you guys about the following issues:

1. What is the purpose of the OTF forum

2. How should we deal with personal attacks, flames, etc.

3. How should we deal with thread jacking

4. How should we deal with user-spam (not commercial spam)

5. Is there anything in these forums you miss? What kinda debates / topics aren't possible here but would be good for the OTF, what can we do to bring them here?

6. Are there reasons for you to post or not post in this forum

7. Do you like the idea of a 'closed threads' forum, or do you prefer to keep closed threads in the forum, or do you prefer them to be deleted completely?

8. What can in general be done to make the OTF a better place

9. What should remain to keep the OTF a good place?

10. Anything else?

Thanks for your input.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So, we've new mods and owners around here.
No changes have been made to rules and moderation attitude, etc.

We'd like it to receive some input from you guys about the following issues:

1. What is the purpose of the OTF forum

It is the center of a community. When the on topic forums don't really have a lot of activity (due to lack of games on the horizon or what not), people can come into the off topic to discuss whatever issues they want to talk about and make friends with people who originally came here for a shared interest.

2. How should we deal with personal attacks, flames, etc.

First do a Ming-like "CHILL"

If it continues, then ban the people due to the severity of the personal attacks & flames. Also taking into account past history. For a minor flame or personal attack, 24 hours. For a major one, a week. Maybe institute a third strike rule, where you may get an extra week for your 3rd infraction.

3. How should we deal with thread jacking

Let it go. OT moderators are not supposed to guide the discussion.

4. How should we deal with user-spam (not commercial spam)

Let it go. Unless the attempt is to destroy any conversation that is going on among a few posters (but that is usually hard if the conversation is in depth)

5. Is there anything in these forums you miss? What kinda debates / topics aren't possible here but would be good for the OTF, what can we do to bring them here?

There were more in depth discussions and topics, but I don't think the administration can do anything to bring them in.

Perhaps the idea for a more moderated OT which is more harsh on thread jacking and spam and a less moderated OT (on another board they refer to it as "The Pit") should be contemplated.

6. Are there reasons for you to post or not post in this forum

I post for the people.

7. Do you like the idea of a 'closed threads' forum, or do you prefer to keep closed threads in the forum, or do you prefer them to be deleted completely?

The closed thread forum was a great idea, frankly

8. What can in general be done to make the OTF a better place

Clear moderation rules and try to avoid appearances of favoritism.

An Off Topic and a Pit can be a good idea as well.

9. What should remain to keep the OTF a good place?

Try being evenhandled and listen to people. Don't close threads for being spammy without reading the good points in the OP, for instance.

10. Anything else?

Nope . You had your first Off Topic revolt. You seem to be reacting pretty well to it.

[Guynemer]

Hey Robert.

So I know I was kind of vague in my PM, but here is my general thought:

For an Off-Topic Forum, in general, he or she who mods least, mods best. Other than personal insults and porn, I honestly think anything goes. No one is harmed by threadjacking or spam threads or copycat threads, it's all just harmless funning. No harm, no foul.

Basically, I'd have one, and only one, rule: Don't be a douchebag.

1. What is the purpose of the OTF forum

As above--just fun, plain and simple.

2. How should we deal with personal attacks, flames, etc.

As above--this is the only real area for the mods to focus.

3. How should we deal with thread jacking

4. How should we deal with user-spam (not commercial spam)

You shouldn't.

5. Is there anything in these forums you miss? What kinda debates / topics aren't possible here but would be good for the OTF, what can we do to bring them here?

I miss having more posters here. If we can increase the fun quotient--curtailing personal attacks and loosening up everything else--the numbers should rise.

6. Are there reasons for you to post or not post in this forum

It's my online home. Where else would I go?

7. Do you like the idea of a 'closed threads' forum, or do you prefer to keep closed threads in the forum, or do you prefer them to be deleted completely?

Frankly, I don't care either way. I don't see any need to delete any thread anyway, certainly not the ones that have been thus far.

8. What can in general be done to make the OTF a better place

9. What should remain to keep the OTF a good place?

10. Anything else?

As above.

Thanks for your input.

And thank you for seeking it out, and making a good-faith effort at improving Poly.

[Jon Miller]

I personally don't like the idea of two OTs, once you get below a certain number of posts per day then the community grows weaker.

JM

[Drake Tungsten]

1. What is the purpose of the OTF forum

To provide a community to keep people interested in the site even when there's no news on the Civilization series (the nominal subject of the site).

2. How should we deal with personal attacks, flames, etc.

You shouldn't really, unless the personal attacks reach a ridiculous level. A forum without some tensions is boring.

3. How should we deal with thread jacking

You shouldn't. "Thread-jacking" is usually people turning a boring thread into something a greater number of people would like to read.

4. How should we deal with user-spam (not commercial spam)

Get rid of post counts. Spam will decrease if there's no incentive for it.

5. Is there anything in these forums you miss? What kinda debates / topics aren't possible here but would be good for the OTF, what can we do to bring them here?

I miss good posters that have been driven away in the past by excessive control and a general level of disdain for the OT by Poly management. Hopefully they'll come back.

6. Are there reasons for you to post or not post in this forum

I only post if there's a critical mass of interesting posters and threads to keep me interested. We're getting perilously close to losing that critical mass.

7. Do you like the idea of a 'closed threads' forum, or do you prefer to keep closed threads in the forum, or do you prefer them to be deleted completely?

The closed threads forum is a good idea. Closing more threads than has been the case in the past is not a good idea, however. The OT already has trouble with generating enough new threads.

8. What can in general be done to make the OTF a better place

Management needs to understand that the OT is the most lively place on Poly and needs to treat it and its members with some respect. JM and Lori were good picks as mods; let them do their job.

9. What should remain to keep the OTF a good place?

Things are fine as they are now. Just leaving things as they are in the OT and concentrating on improving the rest of the site to draw in new users is the best course of action.

10. Anything else?

Good luck.

[Drake Tungsten]

You seem to be reacting pretty well to it.

Agreed.

[Drake Tungsten]

For an Off-Topic Forum, in general, he or she who mods least, mods best. Other than personal insults and porn, I honestly think anything goes. No one is harmed by threadjacking or spam threads or copycat threads, it's all just harmless funning. No harm, no foul.

Couldn't agree more.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I personally don't like the idea of two OTs, once you get below a certain number of posts per day then the community grows weaker.

JM

Was just a thought. Don't know how the new administration thinks of some of the battles that have happened on the Off Topic. If they are squeamish about it, have a Pit and let it go (aside from getting rid of spam bots and death threats and things like that) and warn people about that.

[MOBIUS]

Moderate as little as possible, and when it's required, moderate fairly!

The last regime basically failed in the second point. They had their favourites whom they would punish less, than others they disliked and would punish more. Once they were called on that they took a step back with everyone, but by then the damage was done and the abuse flew thick and fast...

[Asher]

You get major brownie points for making this thread, so thanks.

1. A place to hang out with the community when not here for the Civ gaming specifically. More practically, something to keep people around between Civ releases.

2. Just be consistent. Something that is banable for one poster should be banable for another, regardless of "past". I'd be fine with outlawing direct PERSONAL attacks such as comments pertaining to family and significant others, or other things beyond the person's control with the notable exception of making observations that are apparent through the discourse of the thread. For instance, if somebody gets a basic math problem wrong in a thread, it should not be an offense to observe they have terrible math skills.

The other thing to keep in mind is to judge the context and the intent of the comments. For instance, comments exchanged between myself and Wiglaf are in jest and should not be taken seriously -- it's not by either of us, it shouldn't be by the admins either.

3. I don't think the admins should act in response to threadjacking unless requested to by the thread's originator or its major participants. Frequently threads meander in topic as they peter out, and I think that's fine...but if the originator disagrees they could request a thread split to make another thread with the tangent.

4. I think it's fine so long as it's not disruptive to a specific thread. For instance, spamming a thread discussing the best Main Battle Tank is not really acceptable, but having a thread that starts on a silly premise means in the context, spam is fine. This should be a thread-level distinction, not a forum-level one. Some threads will be "serious internet business", others can be silly community games or discussion.

5. I wasn't aware this was an administrative issue.

6. Reasons to post: the posters. Reasons not to post: Meddling administrators. The purpose of the OTF is to be fun and engaging and sometimes informative, and sometimes overzealous moderation sucks the fun right out of it (eg, CFC).

7. Closed threads should just exist in the forum they were closed in. It is imperative an administrator provide a detailed explanation as to why a thread is closed when it is closed, at the last post.

8. Consistent moderation combined with a "hands-off" approach. The OTF is not the on-topic forum and should not be moderated as such. It is mostly free-wheeling and for it to be successful it needs to maintain that kind of environment. Unless there is an egregious, direct personal attack or inappropriate material (eg, pornography), it should basically be permitted.

9. The environment should remain the same. The OTF is a playpen for posters between Civ releases and who are not playing Civ currently. If you come down hard on it, people will leave.

10. If you decide that the OTF has become too playful for whatever reason, the worst thing you could do is just demand change in how people behave here. If anything, you could create a "Serious Business" OTF forum where you can strictly moderate it and have academic/paint-drying debates in a serious/professional form while you can have the "Old-school" OTF forum with a little bit of everything. It's the mixture of the two, in my view, that keeps this place worth visiting. Whatever you do, don't kill the OTF as we know it.

[Drake Tungsten]

Moderate as little as possible, and when it's required, moderate fairly!

The last regime basically failed in the second point. They had their favourites whom they would punish less, than others they disliked and would punish more.

Very true.

[MOBIUS]

Get rid of post counts. Spam will decrease if there's no incentive for it.

Agree - in fact I hereby volunteer for a 100% PCR! There are witnesses!

P.S. I'd rather see this site succeed, than that of the Death Threat Approvers...

[Asher]

Also, I strongly encourage you to focus on the On-Topic with your efforts to fix this site. The lack of content is what's killing us. Look at the lack of news posts made in the past year, even.

You now have some serious competition from several sites, and you were losing just with the CFC competition. You need to focus your efforts on on-topic and leave OTF as-is, if you want to rejuvenate this site.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. What is the purpose of the OTF forum

To provide a forum where all us old civvers can have some fun, chat and enjoy each other's company.

2. How should we deal with personal attacks, flames, etc.

I like the three strike rule. Warn with a chill, then another warning that further attacks will result in banning. First offense, sit for a day or so. If a poster continually repeatedly has personal attacks, extend this as necessary, until they get the hint.

3. How should we deal with thread jacking

Post a thread listing the Hijacker of the month, as appointed by the moderators.

4. How should we deal with user-spam (not commercial spam)

Same. Have an award for spammer of the month, the poster who has the highest posts/useful information ratio as appointed by the moderators.

5. Is there anything in these forums you miss? What kinda debates / topics aren't possible here but would be good for the OTF, what can we do to bring them here?

I'd like the forum to be more mellow, less personal attacks, more fun.

6. Are there reasons for you to post or not post in this forum

Same as guynemer, it's my online home. I like it here.

7. Do you like the idea of a 'closed threads' forum, or do you prefer to keep closed threads in the forum, or do you prefer them to be deleted completely?

Interesting idea. Insufficient data to make a conclusion.

8. What can in general be done to make the OTF a better place

Consistant moderation, but otherwise, I think you are off to a good start.

9. What should remain to keep the OTF a good place?

You haven't really changed much.

10. Anything else?

Make sure your mods have their banning rods activated before releasing them into the wild.

[SlowwHand]

Pass out pistols and whomever is still standing will likely get along fine.

[notyoueither]

1. To facilitate a community of posters, many of whom come here from the OnT, but not all. This assumes that more site traffic is positive and that keeping people around for purposes other than being a civ site has merit.

2. Personal attacks should be discouraged when mild and stopped when more harsh.

3. The posters themselves should be allowed to determine the course of threads. The only guidance they should need would be the thread starter asking for help if his/her threads are jacked (eg. anneshem and the eternal question of the origins of hundu civilisation).

4. Be easy going. Posters will go where they want to. People like LS and joncha make forums a more intersting place. Only proviso being, again, trashing other peoples' threads should be stopped.

5. Not really, except that we know that certain subjects may not have very productive discussions since they've been done to death and the same old people will have the same old arguments again, and again.

6. I post here because it is like my on-line home. I sometimes avoid posting to avoid conflicts which have been allowed to turn very nasty in the past.

7. I'm positively inclined towards the closed-threads forum, but my jury is still out. If it turns into a penile competition it might not be such a great idea.

8a. Try to cut down on dog-piling and harsh personal attacks. I'm not sure how you eliminate dog-piling. A flat-Earther would probably not find a kind hearing on a forum with a lot of people familiar with the physical sciences. The tone should be important.

8b. I'd appreciate it if posts don't get deleted. It is disconcerting to come into a thread and parts of the discussion are missing. There is a solution for posters who require a lot of editing of their posts.

9. Most everything except the excessive nastiness.

10. Thanks for caring enough to make the effort. Kudos for being able to admit a mistake. Being open to suggestions is another positive sign.

A bit more later.

[Jon Miller]

I think that I can merge posts from two different people.

What if I merge the posts of two people who are getting too personal in their conflict/argument?!?

Or what if both people are banned for a day or something? Instead of it being a contest to see who can get the other one to go over the line,a nd complain to the mods to ban them, just ban both?

JM

[Jon Miller]

Personally I am totally fine with attacks.

But I dont' think the community is.

JM

[Krill]

I don't think that's what the admins want to here from an OTF mod Jon...

[Asher]

I don't think that's what the admins want to here from an OTF mod Jon...

Have I mentioned how much I love Jon Miller?

I read all of his posts pretending he is Steven Wright: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wright

[SlowwHand]

Hear.

[Jon Miller]

I have said that the only things I dislike are porn + spam bots. However, I would agree to mod against attacks/etc as well.

And it is clear that sometimes people go overboard (Dale) and have to be modded due to attacks.

JM

[Drake Tungsten]

John is right, though. Not all attacks are bad for the site.

[notyoueither]

I think that I can merge posts from two different people.

What if I merge the posts of two people who are getting too personal in their conflict/argument?!?

Or what if both people are banned for a day or something? Instead of it being a contest to see who can get the other one to go over the line,a nd complain to the mods to ban them, just ban both?

JM

As I tried to indicate, a lot depends on circumstance and tone.

I generally don't like hard and fast rules. Principles and intelligent oversight are better.

[Lorizael]

Personally I am totally fine with attacks.

But I dont' think the community is.

JM

I'm totally fine with attacks against me. I'd like to institute a new policy: whenever you're thinking about directly attacking another poster, instead just send me a PM insulting my ancestry/penis size/intelligence.

[MOBIUS]

John is right, though. Not all attacks are bad for the site.

[Jon Miller]

Another idea.

Once per day the moderators will return a spam thread that got locked... people post or vote about which one they want returned.

We will be like Pontus Pilot!

JM

[Robert Plomp]

Regarding on-topic content.
Jeroen and me team up tomorrow evening (in real world) to speak about that, make plans for the homepage, etc.
We certainly are aware that that's the main issue! poly should be ready for civ5, if it ever comes.

That doesn't mean that we must be ready as a community as well when thousands of new members may join.

[Asher]

Regarding on-topic content.
Jeroen and me team up tomorrow evening (in real world) to speak about that, make plans for the homepage, etc.
We certainly are aware that that's the main issue! poly should be ready for civ5, if it ever comes.

That doesn't mean that we must be ready as a community as well when thousands of new members may join.

Not just Civ5, but Civ4. A lot of us even in the OTF could be persuaded to return to Civ4 if there was suitable community incentive to do so.

[MOBIUS]

I have a copy on the shelf next to me, but issues with Vista are preventing me from bothering right now.