Get rid of Unique Civs

[Rohag]

If a computer program aspired to be a “history simulator,” rather than a “strategy game,” I might grant the potentially racist character of pre-determined cultural uniquenesses. But, when the program is a game seeking to model only a few selected elements of history – and highly abstract or ignore the others, then I feel the charge of racism is largely unwarranted.

Cultural formation in its physical and human environments is extraordinarily complex and the subject of much debate. I cannot blame game designers for abstracting it through the use of simple nation-specific traits influenced by real history.

Now, personally, I would be VERY interested in an interactive “Sim History” program. This might involve “players” (I use that term loosely) taking the roles of tribal-kingdom-national leaders with a span of decision akin to real life. That would mean the “player” would have little or no control over many of the natural and even human forces shaping their generic historical entity. I’d find that fascinating. Maybe some others would find it fascinating. Would there be enough of us to make it profitable for a designer/publisher?

[tniem]

Originally posted by Rohag
Cultural formation in its physical and human environments is extraordinarily complex and the subject of much debate. I cannot blame game designers for abstracting it through the use of simple nation-specific traits influenced by real history.

I agree that it is complex and I really can't blame them either. But I do have a problem with taking real history nation traits such as increased production from the Japanese when the game is going to start at the beginning of time. So the reason that the Japanese got so industrious might never take place. Instead, the way you play they should instead be great agriculturalists. It just does not make sense in my opinion.

[One_Dead_Villy]

that is why i think maybe cultural traits that are based on real life geography maybe the best way to go for both anthropoloigical accuracy and flavour. So like Japan and england is an island nation so they should get some kind of sea bonus. just like russian its ok for them to get their russian winter attrition tech. kinda like no matter what map we are on their side of the map has harse weather or something. rather then cultral traits and advantages that are based on current stereotypes.

[Rohag]

Originally posted by tniem

...the reason that the Japanese got so industrious might never take place.

I agree. Speaking only for myself, I’d be perfectly happy with a game featuring generic civilizations, the character of each being determined by a combination of geographical placement, player choices, and in-game interactions (‘history’).

It seems to me many RTS gamers (myself included) un- or semi-consciously role-play. Reading the posts on various forums, some people seem to choose their nations not only for game play advantages but also through some kind of personal identification. The identification need not be positive; some appear to enjoy playing notorious, violent regimes within the safety of the RTS game world, much as they might play a bloody FPS.

This is part of the reason I fear historical games, both RTS and TBS, will usually invest their nations with traits drawn from the popular imagination. Familiar historical images, no matter how shallow, serve as handles for the subtle role-playing of many gamers.

I hope I’m wrong. I’d buy the evolving civilization game you’re describing here – I might even pre-order it.

[One_Dead_Villy]

actually i am not even sure why Japan as an example gets this production bonus. It doesnt seem at all to reflect any historical situation I am aware of, I mean if anyone America is the one nation most often that used its industrial capacity to overtake another nation in peace and in war. Japan on the other hand seemed more often then not the opposite. The only thing I can think of that might have given the impression of Japanese production capabilities seemed to come from some recent events after WW2, but even that doesnt really reflect what is the cause behind Japan's rise after WW2, they like many who studied Japan (which I have since I worked there before), seems to be based on the Japanese affinity to assimulate technology from the outside, but also a tendency to make stepwise improvements rather then revolutionary changes.

I would think a better civ bonus for them would be much cheaper research, but maybe slower research speed. So for a player he/she would be able to if they plan their econ well, be able to start their researches earlier then others to negate the slow speed or since they are cheaper they can have a bunch of research going at once.

Or we can have the other way around and have them have faster research speed but more expensive research costs. Kinda as a reflection of their Meiji restoration period, where great changes took place towards industrialization but at great social costs. Although this second approach isnt quite so unique to Japan really. So the 1st way I like better. I am basing this on the fact that I have worked in Japan for a Japanese company before, and from stuidying Japanese language and sociology in University.

But either way would reflect some character that was displayed by Japan in its history.

Just to elaborate I think a research bonus as I mentioned would be more appropriate since they were very keen to assimilate social and political and literary influences from China through out its ancient past, adopt europeans guns when it was introduced to them in their fuedal times (age of exploration for portuguese), and of course industrialization during the meiji restoration (pre modern era), and technology in the modern era. Most of which was more or less invented by outsiders but Japan, unlike say China, was very receptive to them. Of course Japan also had its period of isolationism but as soon as the industrialized nations came knocking on their door they knew they had to catch up and learn from these outsiders, where as China continued and entrenched their isolationism.

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/nsf97324/chp7.htm

The above is a comparison of Japan/U.S. productivity and R&D expenditures. as well as comparions between Asia-pacific countries.

In that regard, looking at that article and what I know of Chinese history. I think what China should have is a commerce bonus. It is because of their large population and vibrant internal economy/commerce that was such a boon to them in the ancient times (that propelled its development, certainly there isnt any lack of supply of smart Chinese people but that intellect in the past has been more often then not culturally directed to non scientific pursuits like commerce and politics and arts, while advanced technology for the time seem to me more as a side effect then a concious effort to pursue it), but in a different time was a hinderence to its developmement by resisting trade and assimilation of outside influences and technolgy cause it was feared it would effect negatively on its internal commerse and social institutions. Now if there was to be a system of civ traits that had both an advantage and disadvantage (like my idea for Japan with cheaper research but longer research time), China may because of my analysis of its history would get a bonus on commerce but a penalty in higher research costs.

Of course in whatever case the advantage should outweigh the disadvantages. Like in my China case the superior commerce would more then make up for the penalty in the higher research cost so the overall effect would still be a fairly effective and efficient research nation but it just has to spend more of its resources into research compared to other nations. Just as an example say if commerce bonus allow them to gather 20 extra gold then others per transaction the research cost would cost them say 5 more gold then others. So the effect would be that the extra gold would make up for the extra cost of research and produce much more development in other areas, but to spend it on research would be less efficient then spending that gold on other items. Of course research is vital so eventually some of the gold HAS to flow that way. BUT what that would in effect do is funnel the player toward having big territory (by spending resources gains on civics), many peasants (by spending resources on cities and peasants) and a large army (by spending it on units rather then quality of units) somewhat inferior technology over a long period of time. Which is what we are seeing in the modern world.

In that regard my Japan example the cheaper research is somewhat dampened by the slower research speed, in that they can START the research earlier cause it costs less but it would complete after someone else who started it later, BUT the cost reduction would combine so that the overall speed of getting a particular research would be faster then other nations cause of the time required to gather the extra resources for a research to make up for the base line research cost. In specific terms it would mean if they can spend 10 gold less for a research item that takes say 30 seconds to research, and it takes 20 seconds to gather this extra gold for a base line civ, their research speed would be say 10 seconds slower then others. This would have the effect that their advantage is really a 10 second improvement in research time, or if there was another item that cost 10 gold to research they could have both at 40 seconds cause they would be able to afford both at the same time by delaying their research, While others would have to research each in sequence, and thus have both researched at 60 seconds. I am of course not counting the resources gain during the time of research but those resources can be discounted because we can assume they are used in many other areas. What this in effect would do is to focus the player to have many cheap low improvement research upgrades, or early adoption of advanced technology, which reflect Japan's affinity for adopting technology from the outside and penchant for gradual stepwise improvements, rather then pie in the sky revolutionary technology.

[Axehilt]

Originally posted by Rohag
Now, personally, I would be VERY interested in an interactive “Sim History” program. This might involve “players” (I use that term loosely) taking the roles of tribal-kingdom-national leaders with a span of decision akin to real life. That would mean the “player” would have little or no control over many of the natural and even human forces shaping their generic historical entity. I’d find that fascinating. Maybe some others would find it fascinating. Would there be enough of us to make it profitable for a designer/publisher?

There are quite a few others that would find that fascinating (here in these forums at least), but I sort of doubt it'd be enough to be a profitable computer game. However, with just a little creativity, it'd make a great roleplaying game. It'd even work over email. There needn't be many rules, simply a smart GM in control of everything who gives players realistic feedback every turn as to what would realistically happen with their nation (based on their knowledge of actual historical events).

Only a few statistics would need to be tracked numerically (unless players wanted to get more detailed in that regard). Military size and money. General observations would be relayed by the GM as to the player's Military training, economical power, harvestable resources, political climate (rebellion?), and how prosperous the scientific community is. Think "Civilization the RPG".

Each turn, players would submit paragraphs actually detailing out what actions they wanted their civilization to perform "construct a bridge across this river, concentrate on harvesting the forest, begin a mass propaganda campaign, found new cities, etc". The GM would then reply with the results "the bridge was constructed so trade has improved resulting in more food in London resulting in population growth, the people are now rallied behind the propaganda and intent on crushing your foes, a new village was founded at the crossroads of two of your current cities".

I dunno, it's similar to something I did for about 2 months in my senior year high school History class and it impressed on me the complexities involved in running a government. It sort of modeled the Cold War but with fake names for countries. Two minor countries, each backed by a superpower, had a conflict brewing over a border dispute. Unfortunately, soon after our country landed troops (instead of just backing them with weapons) the other superpower landed troops and it escalated into nuclear war where all sides lost and the game ended. Lesson learned: Don't let superpowers go head to head violently.

It was fun and pretty interesting, though I don't know that I'd want to do it by email :P It was a unique freeform roleplaying experience though.

[One_Dead_Villy]

Axehilt, thats sounds pretty fascinating excercise.
However in a game I think we would need to get statistical I mean afterall it wouldnt be totally objective and thus fair to everyone. When a GM is involved his/her views would inevitably influence things, no matter HOW objectively he/she tried to be. Afterall what makes sense to the GM, doesnt necessarily reflect the actuality nor do countries in reallife do and react in ways which seems logically or reasonable to anyone let alone a GM no matter how smart or broad visioned. I mean look at the American peace efforts in the middle east.


Now the fact that BHG is building into RON many factors from environmental to wonder effects and inherent cultural traits makes it as far as I have seen the best effort so far to at least give all sides a chance to contribute to the debate of civilizations and development, so that no sides feel left out. Just as long as no one side is monotheastic so to speak, and refuses to bow before other gods, we are cooking with gas.

[nobull]

its based on "what if"

the reason that BHG has chosen these "unique" nations is because the game is spposed to be based on what could of happened instead of what did happen. think about it, if the spanish and english never took over the aztecs land or whatever, there wouldn't be a U.S.A, the game is supposed to be half fictional half real, fiction being the storyline and the realism being the trade, the borders and the way cities are generally built!