Getting *ss wiped in tougher

[buizzz]

sorry about that, I have removed the replay from the post. I am playing a new game right now, saving at crucial junctions along the way (including the beginning), and this time I am actually more or less on par with the ai. will post results later including savegames and reply, so we can all have a look at it.

[Grond]

I won on tougher about 95% of the time and on toughest 50-60%. On toughest an early shortage of woods or not enough mountains near your first 3 cities is usually fatal. There are a few Civs that I have found are especially hard to beat on toughest, Incas, Aztecs and Chinese come to mind.

[Gort]

I can win on tougher about 1 out of 5, so I am no pro, but I have found one way to win that is lots of fun and, while still tough, makes tactical sense.

That is to choose a water map, like Great Lakes, or Med. I build a dock as soon as possible, set out a bunch of fishermen for my economy, and then concentrate on building a strong navy.

When the computer starts building a dock I destroy it with my navy. This is hard work because the initial naval units are pretty weak.

I place my cities as near the water as possible so that my navy can provide defense (my land forces are weak since resources went to navy)

It is a lot of fun, and very tough because the initial attack ships are very weak. But with the fishermen my economy gets going, and when I get bombard ships it really starts to be a blast.

This provides me with a pretty strong defense and the ability to build my economy. As the computer starts running out of room, the coastal lands, which I dominate, become more important.

These are long, fun games. I don't know if this would work in mp, but try it in sp, it's a kick!

[mgdpublic]

The AI's resource bonus has it's greatest advantage in the early game. That's why rushing civs are particularly hard to beat. The only way I've beaten (and seen other's beat) tougher AI is to exploit the AI's weaknesses. It will always attempt to take down forts and towers before progressing further. If you keep your troops just outside your fort they will move in to engage you within the forts range. At this point garrison your army and the AI will take a good 25% hit to it's army before retreating. Make spies and invest in the radius increase to bribe their siege and regarrison your spies immediately. Since you can keep a smaller force by engaging and healing within the fort you can out tech him and that's when the AI's stupidity really starts to shine. It will engage a technologically inferior army. I find tougher easiest to beat on a water map with no more than 4 land masses. The Navy AI is pretty weak. I've noticed that the AI tends to seek Naval superiority before major land assaults if you begin with even a small but aggressive attack on his docks. Lure him into attacking your dock where you've also conveniently built a fort. Invest in all the fort range techs. Build your boats but set the rally point to garrison. Pop out counters to whatever is his first line and take them out. Don't let your boats sink - keep them close to the dock and garrison at 50% or less health. You have to get him to waste those extra resources he gets on fruitless attacks so that you can outtech him. Obviously invest in the forage line of techs that increase healing times when garrisoned. I can upload a game if you want.

[checkMate]

"Build your boats but set the rally point to garrison."

How do you actually do this? I had a game where I was trying to build up my navy while the AI was sitting on top of my Dock. I had to watch it every minute to keep the ships in the Dock. Can you really set it up so they automatically stay in the dock after they are built?

[MattH]

Select the dock, click R and then left click on the dock. When you select the dock again, it should be flashing "created units garrison" or something similar.

[Brab]

When any building is selected, you can easily set the rally point by right-clicking where you want it to be.

To garrison units on creation, select the building then right click on it.

[buizzz]

well, finally had my win on tougher. managed to win by turtling while slowly building an army all the time garrisoned inside buildings in my third city. resources were coming in nicely thanks to fishermen (which are almost too good). by the time I was ready to advance to gunpowder age, I had built a nice army. the AI had made its customary attack rather early and wasted itself against the garrisoned units. upgraded to gunpowder age, waited a little while to get all gunpowder age related weapons upgrades, built units upto max unit count (which was 100 at the time) and then sent off the army. quickly took the first city, left only a small rear guard behind (to be reinforced by units still coming out of barracks and stables) and raided the two next cities, the last one of which was the AI's capital.

worked like a charm, thanks you all for tips and tricks!

I still need to improve my handling of the army in combat, and I need to be able to win also on maps without water, so back to the training camp...

have attached the replay from just before I start the attack in case you are interested, of course your critical comments are still welcome.

[Rolfski]

Try these two tutorials. Believe me, they are very usefull:

Efficient economy

Playing thougher: single players guide

[solo]

Buizz,

Well done! I'll look forward to watching the replay. I also recommend those two tutorials. A lot of good info there.

[buizzz]

just had another win on tougher, am really getting a hang of it now. I am gaining a lot from using the AI's predictability. the AI will attack just before gunpowder age with a relatively balanced army. 4-5 slingers (perhaps upgraded once) garrisoned + level 1 attrition will make the AI lose its army against the city. then I turn on the production machine and mass up an army up the max unit count I can reach, wait for gunpowder age - upgrade (especially artillery is important to upgrade, no use in trying to conquer a city with either of the two first levels of artillery) and go on the attack.

interesting to see that it actually pays off to expand aggressively, though you should think that it would expose me too much. after all, am only using 4-5 slingers to defend, but I guess the terrority denied from the AI is more important. by building a trail of cities towards the AI I also control which city the AI will attack -- it seems to attack the closest one systematically -- and I can organise the defense accordingly.

one interesting observation which I guess has already been made in many other posts, the fishermen are too good, and the AI is too weak in the sense that it does not use them and does not build even a few naval arms to take out my unprotected fishermen. guess a little something for the next patch?

the tutorials helped as well.

[buizzz]

thought I'd revive this thread, since I have gotten into a losing streak the last twenty-odd games. After some star gazing and reflecting I realised that it is on pure land maps that I can't win over the AI whereas on maps with big lakes or sea (with full use of fishermen) I can win somewhat comfortably.

Do any of you experts have particular advice for playing pure land maps against tougher/toughest AI? I usually build my cities in a trail towards the AI area, but on a pure land map the AI will build up along one of my flanks and tend to attack the 2nd line city just as often as my frontline city where I have organised the defenses. I wonder how to counter this...?

[Hermann the Lombard]

Did you see the Bantu Boom thread? You can use search to find it. The Bantu are pretty overwhelming against the AI...but if you think about what the AI did to you, the counter is logical: don't just build straight at the AI, if possible, spread out laterally to make a "T" shape with the top toward the AI, then backfill the corners beneath the top. If the AI is on you too fast, invert the T (or make a plus sign, I suppose), refusing your flanks at the operational level. However, I haven't had this problem at "tougher" -- the AI tends to fixate on the front & center city long enough for me to expand laterally...though the AI *will* shift targets after failing a couple of times.

[HeymlicH]

Originally posted by buizzz
The AI completely wipes me out, winning almost simultaneously on territory, wonder, capital conquer and complete wipe-out.

sound's like you really should play on an easier level.

[Out4Blood]

That was helpful.

I suggest you read two posts in particular.

Using the infinite queue This will help you keep up in production against the AI.

Beating the toughest AI This one identifies certain strategies that are useful against the toughest AI. It should apply to the tougher one as well.