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Master of Orion 3 - What Went Wrong?

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  • #46
    If it's any consolation, I've not experienced anything like what he did with spying. No problems at all, really. There's the occasional unrest and whatnot, but usually it's pretty solvable.

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    • #47
      I'm on the thumbs down side as well. Others appear to have played more than me (I made it through 500+ total turns in 2 complete games), but my experience is much the same.

      The only significant impact you can have appears to come in locating what the viceroys are doing wrong (sometimes really obvious, sometimes not) and correcting it over and over again. Probably the most disappointing aspect of the game for me (mentioned already) is the disembowelling of the ship-building aspect of MOO2. The primary role of the player has become not to build ships, not to see how their weapons perform in combat, not to engage in any strategic consideration of which weapon works best under which circumstance, but simply to label old ships obsolete. That's it: just stamp the old ones obsolete and autobuild the new; the turn button takes care of everything else.

      If ever there was a game played in a visual and conceptual cause-and-effect void, this is it. You end up hitting the turn button over and over again simply because everything else seems so damn pointless. You could be playing a real game for cripes sake, and you just want this damn thing in front of you to be over. (Maybe you should be able to activate a "turn button" viceroy somewhere; that wouldn't be too hard to screw up.)

      Ultimately, I didn't care about my self-sufficient colonies, I sure didn't care about my annoying viceroys, I didn't care about my ships, my fleets, my heroes, and I increasingly didn't care about giving the game another 3 to 4 to 5 hour chance.

      I used to care about the MOO series. But the viceroys appear to have covered that as well -- and it sure looks dead from here.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MetalKing
        Dear Corentor.

        You missed the entire point of the matter. We judge this game by its predecesors.By what you wrote this game could be an arcade. IT COULD BE FUN!!
        Is there something wrong with arcade games? I happen to like Street Fighter, a lot. I have missed nothing. What you don't understand is that you do not get to define what is fun for other people. You cannot say something is universally not fun and therefore a bad game. You can say its a bad game for you and people who wanted something similar to what you wanted but thats about it.

        [SIZE=1] Not to mention your relation to art. How about abstract art??How many people f***ing like that!?!? If the game was ment to be in your words abstract "art" well f*** 'em.
        Umm yes. You don't happen to enjoy abstract art so you **** em and dismiss them as insignificant. Oh yes, and this just in: The universe revolves around your head.

        [SIZE=1]Bottom line is the game is not bad, but it's not a classic, it's not a game that would set standards for others to follow. Do you get my point.I was expecting this kind of game. At least by the time they had to make it...
        Who gets to define classic? You? LOL.

        [SIZE=1]You know I am really dissapointed at games(read sequels) that are coming out. HOMM4 came out. Everyone said it sucked but i defended it. I tried to find something that would be WOW...well it didn't happen. Now i agree it sux.
        So you defending a game that you didn't like to begin with....yes you are a smart one.

        [SIZE=1]Civ3 came out, everyone said it sucked. I still defended the game and said it was awesome. But the first time that two archers defeated my tank civ3 never saw the light on my computer again.Plainly the kind of things that shouldn't happen in that kind of game. I did not complain about those kinds of things happening in original CIV1 but 12 or 13 years later!?!? come on.
        Should not have happened? By your standard? By what you think the combat ruleset should have been. Oh yes, I forgot the universe revolves around you.

        [SIZE=1]Well MOO3 is the next and i assure you it is just an average game full of useless things that should be put aside and make the game less complex and more like it's predecesors.
        Waa waa waa, what I want. Hint, what you want is not what everyone else wants. I know this might be hard for you to understand but I've got a little secret for you.....shhhhh *not everyone thinks like you do*.

        Really, if I were to send this post back to my earlier self sometime in the past, I would have not agreed with it myself. But sometime after you become a jaded gamer, you realise that maybe, just maybe, that your own opinion is not the only thing that matters when labelling a game good or bad or whatever.

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        • #49
          Quag: they already knew what you were thinking and did indeed include a "new turn" viceroy. When you start a new game, turn off unlimited turn length and set the turn length to something small. Voila, you now have a frantic button mashing mess where you have to burrow through menus as fast as possible to correct as many planetary AIs as possible before the next turn hits.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by H Tower
            are you done then? never coming back? or are you going to give QS a chance to patch some stuff first and then possibly rethink your opinion?
            H Tower,

            Calm down and lay off, man....

            I've had reason to defend this game as you have over the past week or so from all of the annoying rants about it before it even came out.

            But honest appraisals by people who have PLAYED the game and are having difficulty with it are entirely valid.

            Remember that this was a game which was DELAYED for months in order to work out the bugs and remaining play issues. Saying that we shouldn't judge the game until a patch comes out when we (myself included) have been arguing for weeks that the game would be better for being delayed is extremely faulty reasoning.

            I think I'm starting to really like this game and you can see the thread I started for my comments on that, but I fully respect the opinions of those like Silellak who have PLAYED the game and see problems with it. I've seen many of the same problems.

            As for Sillelak, other than the fact that he's a college friend of mine and that obviously biases my stance on the issue, I really respect his point here. The game, despite the fact that I think it's basically a good game, suffers from a severe lack of a tutorial or other learning experience for the new player. It's also not MoO... and for a number of people, that's going to be a disappointment. They'll get over it.

            As for Sillelak himself, I was just talking to him over IM for about the last hour and now he's back to playing the game. I think he has a good attitude toward it. The last IM he sent me was:

            Silellak: For now, I face Moo3 again in mortal combat
            Silellak:
            As for me, I'm about to go do the same. With enough hours under my belt, I'll finally be able to get beyond simply treading water with this game and start really playing it. I just wish the game came with a better tutorial to speed that process along.
            Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
            Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
            7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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            • #51
              Originally posted by kalbear
              The design doc for MoO3 declared it was to be an A+ title to sell 500K copies or more. That's a mainstream game if there ever was one.

              Regardless of whether that was their intent, it sure as hell wasn't what they got. I can't imagine any casual gamers even remotely liking it.
              I agree that MOO3 is not a mainstream game. I doubt anyone would debate that.

              However, half a million sales does not make a game mainstream. It's still a niche game for a certain market of gamers. Very few computer games are really considered mainstream -- really, The Sims is the *only* extremely popular mainstream game. A comparison might be Empire Earth or Age of Empires -- both of those games sold over a million copies, I believe, but no RTS game will ever be considered mainstream. There is a strict limit on how many people will ever play the game, unlike the Sims.

              (And no, I don't get any money from the Sims. Wish I did.)

              Comment


              • #52
                Huh. To me, a mainstream game is one that you can expect to find on any computer that can run it, assuming that the person likes games.

                The Sims is much more than a mainstream game - it's a lot like simcity, in that it transcends boundaries and gets non-gamers into playing.

                Mainstream means, oh, something like Warcraft 3 or GTA. Games that everyone could be expected to know about, at least. At this stage, half-life is a mainstream game.

                But that's just quibbling about definitions. Point being, MoO3 will definitely appeal to a small group of people, and will not appeal to the larger gaming public. And it won't sell 500K copies. Not for a very long time, anyway.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by JoD
                  A comparison might be Empire Earth or Age of Empires -- both of those games sold over a million copies
                  Where do you get this information from? Is there a public source of per-game sales statistics?
                  Care for some gopher?

                  Did you know that in GalCiv, the AI makes you think you are playing against humans? Stop laughing, they mean it!!!

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                  • #54
                    Yes their is a publish one, but you need to subscribe.
                    You can also see the list and numbers in most of the game mags from time to time and one (CGW?) has the top few each issue.
                    You can often see if on sites such as EB and others.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by delmar

                      Where do you get this information from? Is there a public source of per-game sales statistics?
                      I am going on memory for those particular numbers; I don't know of a particular website which just lists numbers like that, but such numbers are published on an irregular basis.

                      For instance, http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/ind...php?story=1574 is the story, "Sony announced that it recently shipped its 50 millionth PlayStation 2", which is actually slightly old news.

                      Sorry I can't be more specific, but information like this can be found ... maybe try some searches if you want something more specific.

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                      • #56
                        Espionage is virtually worthless.
                        Shuh...yeh! I guess it is if "worthless" means disrupting your neighbor's scientific and economic and military plans. How about stealing some tech? Pretty nice when those Grendarl won't trade with you! I hope that "endless loop" doesn't appear in my games.

                        Corentor and the other Canadian have the right idea.

                        It's a game!

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                        • #57
                          Corentor it is more than obvious that you are a moron. You can't even normally argument my statements.In a normal coversation people usually listen(read) to what people have to say and then try to see how it bothers them. And the tell their counterarguments. You obviously don't have them or worse you fail to produce them.

                          And another thing.How do you define a classic?? I bet you don't know that either. And yea this game ain't gonna be a classic that's for sure. You don't need to listen to me ask smbd else(read gaming reviewer)

                          And yea street fighter sux. Well depends how old are you if you're 13 i understand your view completely and won't adress you anymore.

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                          • #58
                            thanks for that, Sillelak. no polemic can beat facts. so: how about some more polemic views...moo1 caught up with many for vast options in simplicity. moo2 did the same based on a brilliant interface in a gripping atmosphere. had both been combined, moo3 might just be worth the money (or ripping-hassle). instead they combined the downsides of both previous versions. but there will be other games...

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by MetalKing
                              Corentor it is more than obvious that you are a moron. You can't even normally argument my statements.In a normal coversation people usually listen(read) to what people have to say and then try to see how it bothers them. And the tell their counterarguments. You obviously don't have them or worse you fail to produce them.
                              Atleast I have proper grammer structure: "argument my statments"? Uh huh. As for arguments, my point, all along (and you accuse me of not reading lol) is that you do not get to define what is fun for other people, you cannot define what is or is not a good game for other people.

                              Originally posted by MetalKing And another thing.How do you define a classic?? I bet you don't know that either. And yea this game ain't gonna be a classic that's for sure. You don't need to listen to me ask smbd else(read gaming reviewer)
                              I am a moron huh? Let see, am I the one who does not know the definition of "classic" but despite that, still go on to proclaim that MOO3 will not be a classic.

                              Lets me define classic for you in the sense of the word (courtesy of dictionary.com since I don't want any confusion here) that applies.

                              adj.
                              -Belonging to the highest rank or class.
                              -Serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of colonial architecture.
                              -Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.

                              So since you *know* its not a classic, you automatically know that MOO3 will not be a model or standard. You also know that the game will not endure like the other Master of Orion games.

                              Tell me, where can that purchase a crystal ball you have?

                              Originally posted by MetalKing And yea street fighter sux. Well depends how old are you if you're 13 i understand your view completely and won't adress you anymore.
                              Uh-huh, have you actually gone to real arcades and seen who plays the street fighter games? Hint its not the little kids.

                              I like rather childlike attempt at being cool by using 'sux'. Your impressing a lot of people. LOL.

                              Well thanks for comming out. Let me know when you can post without making it look like you didn't get out of grade 1.

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                              • #60
                                I love development plans and the various AIs.

                                But... whoever designed the interface should be shot, what on earth were they thinking?!

                                NO-NOs:
                                1: 3 Layers to get to a build queue, it took me 1 hour to find out where to queue something (yes i can look it up in the manual, but that's besides the point, it should be intuitive).
                                2: can't scroll the build queue, or queue more then 3 things (as far as i can see, do tell me if it's possible).
                                3: ohhhh an ENCYCLOPEDIA, very handy, especially when i can't right-click anywhere to get instant help, instead, i get a non-working search function in it, since looking for 'ground' will not find 'ground troops', oh, and half the keywords they use in-game, are NOT to be found in it, brilliant!
                                4: the sitrep. pretty nicely done, but why can't i double click on something to get more indepth info on what just happened, for example, after a research has completed, i'd like to be able to view what it does!
                                5: can't multitask without getting screen corruption (yes, it can be fixed by opening up any windows, but why?! other games don't do this)
                                6: when you load a game, the sitrep loses all it's info.
                                7: oh god, the blue-lined GUI boxes, i can't even concentrate on the game since the whole interface is a constant distraction, that and the overload of unneeded data being thrown at me.
                                8: the shipdesign, and the 'auto-build' option, which gives names to ships that are completely unpersonal, next to that, you can select the text in the name box with the mouse, i can hit delete to remove it, YET, i can't hit ctrl-u to clear all text, use shift + arrow keys to select a character, can't copy/paste, nothing, thanks oh-so-brilliant non-standard textbox.
                                9: development plans: "clear selected" how do i select, why do i have to search for the plan through the combobox, instead of just being able to select a row in a table? adding a new development plan is also utterly retarded.
                                10: lets see, there's leaders! uh-oh, where did pilots go, yeah, no longer in-game, not even a task-force commander.
                                11: diplomacy, they should have taken a look at civ3 and incorporated some diplomacy features from there.

                                Seriously, wtf is up with the interface, it's godawfull, have the developers played the original MOO at all? have they tried their own MOO for longer then 10 turns, you have to be really dense to not notice how awfull this is, and here's the sad thing, had the game just had bugs, it would be fixable, a bad interface isn't fixable, least they can do is add context-sensitive help (encyclopedia) ala civ.

                                And no, i don't hate games that have a hard learning curve, i actually like complex games that require thinking, but i can't tolerate having to learn an interface or having to wait for 4 layers to access some information, with all the nice graphical effects that take ages to show, such as menus 'scrolling out' and what not, this has no place in a strategy game.

                                I'm really disappointed in MOO3, not because of the fact that they decided to change the game-concept, but mainly because of the interface.
                                Last edited by syf; March 1, 2003, 12:39.

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