Worst fears coming true: Quarter to Three Review

[kalbear]

As stated several times, QTT is this guy's pet project. He reviews regularly for print and online mags as a job; this is just a hobby.

QTT's review was one he submitted for another mag. It was rejected, he got the rights to it, and decided to publish it on his own site.

[JonahFalcon]

By the way, according to the review itself, it's based on sixty minutes of play. LOL

Read my review again - I already mention when you first start playing, it feels like the game is moving without you. When you understand what is going on...

That's definitely NOT the case. Play for a few hours as if the computer is playing itself and you'll find your empire knee deep in crap, with everyone revolting due to spy infiltration, your ships woefully inadequate, etc.

[kalbear]

Jonah: that's a parody of his site. Normally it's 60 second reviews, but because this was so long...

The reviewer played the game to completion three times - twice he won - and played several other games but did not finish them. Most of which went past turn 200. He spent about two weeks playing.

I figure that's an acceptable amount of time to get a handle on the game. If it's not...hoo boy.

[JonahFalcon]

If Bret finished the game three times and won twice, two words:

HE'S LYING.

Period. Sorry, but if he says he played the game to completion in a huge galaxy with 16 players in 200 turns, he's lying, lying, lying.

Trust me - building an armada to defeat the enemy in EASY mode in a MEDIUM SIZED CLUSTER WITH FOUR OTHER RACES takes WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY more than 200 turns.

[kalbear]

Maybe he won by senate victory? He did remark that he won 'by accident' - and sole survivor/antaran x victories don't sound like accidents.

He also never stated what size galaxy, how many players, etc. Only said he played on easy/medium.

He also stated that his games went PAST turn 200. Not that they ended there. Apparently my statement 'most of his games went past turn 200' was somehow vague...

Considering Lore said that, on easy with the Klackons it was possible to win via senate victory in your first game, it doesn't seem implausible.

[JonahFalcon]

I wrote Brett an email, challenging him on his review. I asked him exactly under what conditions he won.

Like I said, anyone who thinks that the computer does all the work for you is psychotic. The fact is, you really have to focus on the main production planet in each system, and let the computer run the other lesser planets.

When you play in a 16 player game, and you start out with the Orion Senate, it's tough just following all the deals that are going around you. A is at war with B who is trade embargoing C who is allied with D who hates you and is spamming your empire with spies while you beg F to trade a needed tech...

Plus, you have to deal with the ships buzzing around, near and sometimes IN your empire.

The fact that Brett thinks the game plays without him is just a testament to the extremely good AI. Fact is, if the AI wasn't so good, MOO3 would be an abject micromanagement failure.

[JonahFalcon]

By the way, Brett says the AI is miserable in his review. He must have gotten an alpha copy, because the AI is EXTREMELY good.

How can a game require little input and have bad AI and let you win? (shaking head) Contradictory statement.

[MitchDev]

Originally posted by JonahFalcon
By the way, Brett says the AI is miserable in his review. He must have gotten an alpha copy, because the AI is EXTREMELY good.

How can a game require little input and have bad AI and let you win? (shaking head) Contradictory statement.

Mad because he has more credibility than you?

[Corentor]

Originally posted by MitchDev


Mad because he has more credibility than you?

Good one.

[JonahFalcon]

Stuff it, Mitch. I played MOO3 - you didn't.

Cred? Read Brett's review of Deus Ex.

I posted this in the strategy newsgroup:

Let me get this straight...

The AI is awful -- and very little input is needed -- and he wins in 200
turns?

That statement is so ludicrous, I can't even count the ways. For one thing,
the AI is extremely good - in fact, Quicksilver focused on AI most of all.

Hey, Brett, this is from my interview with Bill Fisher:

UGO: How much effort went into the artificial intelligence (the gameplay and
diplomacy AI)?
WCF: Wow. Huge amounts. We had four different people at various times
working on aspects of the AI. When we began the game, I think we identified
about 20 different AI modules that would need to be written. We built every
one of them, and a couple more. Even now, we're still fiddling with some of
them.

Diplomacy AI gets into all aspects of the gameplay model. It looks at
relations between races in order to make decisions. But that also means
paying attention to alliances; my enemy's friend is also my enemy, but his
enemy might just be my friend. It looks at laws passed in the Senate, and
who's voting for or against every bill. And it looks at the technology tree
to make sure it's not negotiating to get something it already has, or
offering too much for something it wants. The list goes on and on, and we
spent many months making it all work right. It was one of the last pieces to
get completely working.

Gameplay AI breaks down into a large number of separate AIs. There's the
planetary AI, the strategic military AI, the exploration AI, the ship design
AI, and on and on. One that we're really pleased with is the planetary AI,
because it does a great job of making sure that it's building reasonable
things at appropriate times at the same time it's listening to the player's
desires. Another cool one is the strategic military code, which is pretty
clever about looking for empire boundaries, seeking out weak points, and
trying to exploit weaknesses in enemy lines of control.

I can't even begin to estimate the total time spent on the AI, but it has to
be at least 4 or 5 man-years.

* * *

Plus, Brett... how the hell did you win in 200 turns? In a MEDIUM SIZED
CLUSTER, with FOUR opponents on EASY, I couldn't win in 200 turns. Hell, by
turn 200 I'd only have a decent sized fleet to actually perhaps mount an
attack.

If you think the computer does all the work, you've suffered a brain
hemorrhage. Try that, and your empire will be in revolt from spies ravaging
it, you'll be heavily in debt, and your tech will be so far behind, you'll
have sticks for defense.

Lack of information? You must be joking. Just where is that lack of info?
What did you need to know? Hell, the game even tells you the size of the
star of the system you're looking at. What did you need to know? Production
points? Income? Did you see the budgetary screen listing ITEM BY ITEM how
the money is being spent and taken in? Where was the lack of info? Are you
whining because the tech tree varies from game to game - and there is a tech
tree "fog of war" that doesn't allow you to see any distant future techs?

(shaking head)

Sorry, Brett, but on this one, you're way off base.

[kalbear]

Jonah, that's the last time you quote me on anything. Or in this instance, misquote me.

I NEVER stated he won in 200 turns. Nor did he.

I NEVER stated that he won via sole survivor. Nor did he.

I NEVER stated that he won any specific-sized galaxy. Nor did he.

The only thing he stated was that he played many games past 200 turns. Actually, that's not completely accurate; the quote was

For the record, I've had the game for over two weeks. I don't know how many hours I've logged, but I've finished three games (two victories, one loss), each lasting at least 300 turns. I've started perhaps a dozen more games that weren't played to completion.

Gods, you're as bad as the fanboys on IGMOO.

[JonahFalcon]

Do you know how tough it is to win via Orion Senate? Not only do you need to be the biggest empire to garner votes via military and economic and empire strength -- but you need to have friends, too.

By the way, YOU CAN TURN PLANETARY AI ***OFF***.

[delmar]

Edit: Never mind, Kalbear said it already.

[Master Marcus]

Originally posted by Corentor

You people need to get a life.

My life is going pretty well, thanks for your concern, even without having the game yet. But JonahFalcon is playing it for some time now, and hopefully you have read the replies - less polite than mine towards the said "credible" reviewer.

have a nice life.

[Bernie Rubber]

kalbear, can you define "fanboy"? Just so I can have something concrete to argue?