Can it get any more simplistic?

[Comrade Tribune]

Found the Puke Smiley!

Feeling slightly better now...

[Angor]

Ah, how it could have been...

Just for the sake of nostalgia, THIS is how the "oppressometer" was originally intended to be like:

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/moo3_screen005.jpg

Nice and diverse possibilities, not condensed into one single slider bar. What really impressed me was the concept of a complex internal political system. Political factions, diverse social settings, racial picks, social technology etc. I especially liked the idea of government leaders. From planetary viceroys, to system governors, to sector commanders, and finally, to a cabinet with ministers and an imperial leader/emperor on top of that. I think the idea was that ALL these leaders had abilities that affected planet/system/empire, and also had their own agendas and political affiliations. Orginally you actually had to consider both the internal state of your empire and it's social/political elements, as well as struggle with the other races and the senate. When I see screenshots from the current game it really breaks my heart, because almost all of that richeness is gone. The system for leaders/political parties is completely excised - even the "government agenda" idea is gone. Now the game seems to be almost completely focused on external affairs, and very little one internal ones. Sure, you have unrest, but that seems horribly simplified compared to what was intended. Compare the "oppressometer" shown above, with the current one: http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/moo3...ew/moo3_12.jpg). In addition your "cabinet" now consists of a handful of imperial-level leaders, functioning as mercenaries like they did in MOO2. No "style" or ambition, no popularity or political agenda.

And here's some screenies where you can see the planetary leaders with abilities (they had stuff like style, loyalty, political clout and popularity for *each* leader) :

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/oldscreens/moo22.jpg

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/Planet04.jpg

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/a5.jpg

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/11L.jpg

I guess there were reasons to cut these elements from the game. But I still can't shake a nagging feeling that it wasn't because of practical design difficulties, but because it made the game too complex for the "average" gamer, and thereby limited the game's market appeal.

I can always hope for the internal political stuff to be included in an expansion, but I think the odds for that are beyond infintesimal. I think an expansion will feature mostly new races, technology and stuff that's easy to include, but no radical design changes.

So I guess we'll have to wait for MOO4. Perhaps in 2010?

[RolandtheMad]

It seems the functionality of the 'Oppressometer' is limited to what used to be the 'Secret Police' slider. Someone who can post on IG should say something. Not like it will have much affect unfortunately.

[kalbear]

Well, the other option is that it may have added needless complexity.

For instance, in the first shot - there's a lot of basically the same deal, all in 5 sliders. Most of them have a similar effect to each other, meaning that it's not like it's a big deal to modify one without others.

If they all basically do the same thing at the same cost, why not have one slider?

Then there's reorganization. There is another slider that deals with slave life expectancy (or FLUs, they're called now) that the strat guide brings up. So that got moved. Dealing with indivdual leaders doesn't matter any more now that they're all global leaders and you control everything, so that's out. The government slider is now encapsulated within the government types and is more concrete.

The disinformation bit is gone. Not sure how much fun that'd have been. Same thing with 'code' breaking, which seems to be another complexity tacked on to the espionage group.

Again, I think once IFPs got removed, a lot of things needed to be changed or removed to make sense. Telling your leaders what to do and what not to do doesn't matter so much when you can control everything - 'hinting' isn't such a big deal. Same goes with controlling your people.

[warden]

I'd not seen those screen shots before and I agree that it's sad how the design has been gutted. But what irritates me most about the "oppressometer" is its name. It's so fake - dopey words like that ruin the sense of immersion. The game really cries out for an editor to go over all the text and red pencil such illiterate gibberish.

For really impressive detail of this kind, check out Hearts of Iron. I just love all the leader bios and descriptions. And the wonderful tech tree. And the organisation rules. MOO3 looks quite crude alongside it. I hope they do a space game next ...

Andrew

[ashbery]

Yes alan emrich's vision was far better, i have no doubt that the simpler moo3 vision is because of I.G wanting a CIV3 in space game.

[Comrade Tribune]

Angor: I agree 100%. Your screens show the really innovative part that made the game worthwhile.

What Emrich had in mind was more like a futuristic sim. Instead, they have made just another world conquest game -as if there weren´t already 15 too many of this sort. The CivIII debacle again -I can hardly believe it!

[Craig P.]

The problem, according to some of the people involved, was that as interesting and in-depth as the Emrich galaxy simulator was, that's all it was -- a galaxy simulator. It wasn't fun, it wasn't a game. Hence the great redesign.

Obviously, they have a biased view, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I have a chance to try the game myself.

[SeanV]

So what most of you guys wanted MOO3 to be was Simcity in space? Dang, the only way you could change it more would be to call it The Sims in Space instead of MOO3. I agree that a lot of these ideas that they were tossing around before Alan left would have been cool, but seeing the final product I think I see why they cut or changed most of it. MOO is a game of exploration and war more than a game of politics. To create a game of based almost completely on the byzantine structure of galactic politics that people could play and enjoy would be the work of a lifetime. It is hard enough to guess what human politicians, under normal earthbound pressures will do, and almost impossible to accurately predict how normal human beings will react to something. You guys are hoping for a game that not only similates how the maddning crowds of Earth act, but also how the restless crowds of Nazin think. That is a pretty tall order for one game company IMHO.

[Comrade Tribune]

The problem was not that it couldn´t be done. It had already been done! (See the old screenshots.) They watered it down puposefully to please the idiots.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by SeanV
So what most of you guys wanted MOO3 to be was Simcity in space?

(Simcity married to Gary Grigsby´s Pacific War) in Space. Would be the perfect game, imo.

[Asmodean]

Re: Ah, how it could have been...

Originally posted by Angor

But I still can't shake a nagging feeling that it wasn't because of practical design difficulties, but because it made the game too complex for the "average" gamer, and thereby limited the game's market appeal.

Excuse me, but they actually raise the game's market appeal by doing that. It may be that we as avid strategy gamers like these features, but the average gamer out there find these things just a tad too complex. As the average gamers are the majority, QS and IG have to cater to these people. So sales will actually improve with measures like these.

Asmodean

[EDIT]I am not say that I agree with them. I want a complex game as much as you guys. But I do say that I understand them.[/EDIT]

[Comrade Tribune]

Do we really know what 'the market' wants? There are lots of games already that cater to the lazy and slow-witted, but I suspect most of them don´t like TBS games at all, so why not cater to the hardcore gamers for a change? EU does this, and is quite successful (would be even more successful if it were less buggy.)

[Main_Brain]

Well actually I cant remember any recent Space(4Xor more) sims released that were actually good in recent Time so lets wait n see wheter its fun or not?

[Trifna]

If it was already done the other way... couldn't they make a sort of MOO3plus, where all this is in it? I mean the same game, except with all this stuff... some kind of option.