Can it get any more simplistic?

[Comrade Tribune]

Look at the 'Oppressometer' screenshot in the Wargamer preview. All Oppression does now is either increase/decrease happiness or counter espionage; it seems to not even have an influence on research (or anything else). Where is the complex social engineering that was promised 2 years ago? I remember an older screenshot with five or six different sliders for different parts of society. Is this all gone? Will there be fewer social engineering policies than in SMAC? Who needs another CivIII style wargame?

If this idiotic 1-dimensional Oppressometer slider is characteristic of what to expect I need a *puke* smiley to express my opinion about this game.

[vee4473]

they don't know what they're doing. They probably realized that and simplified the whole game just so they could get it out in 3 years time.

[moomin]

A wee bit disappointing, yes. SMAC, unrealistic as that system was, still stands as the champion of social settings.

[vee4473]

I apologize for my outburst. I'm sure they know whjat they are doing.

It just can seem like they are clueless at times, given the extensive time and delays.

but oh well.

[Comrade Tribune]

I remember there were tons of info about the zillions of different policies you could implement. Based on this, I wrote quite an enthusiastic piece for Poly a year ago. I take back everything I said! If they trashed most of the socio-political options, they trashed the justification for Moo3´s existence, as far as I am concerned.

[moomin]

Well, given they left in only the slider you'd feel ideologically compelled to crank up to max each time, I feel your pain.

Nevertheless, I think you're doing too much out of this. I'm sure we'd all want a complex social system, but remember the orion dealing and wheeling is still in.

[Asmodean]

Maybe they were justified in feeling that Alan Emrich had bit off a larger chunk than he could chew. I mean, as hardcore strategy gamers go, these SE settings are yummy.

But the majority of buyers out there are not hardcore. In fact they are anything but. And since sales are sales, and dollars are dollars, they had to cater to these people. Hence cuts were made.

In the end, I'm sure that MoO3 will be worth the wait, and I'll defend that opinion untill I actually play the game and find that it sucks

Asmodean

[Trifna]

Still, even if not ultra-complex, we could try to make it complete. Like not more bars and all, but each bar can have many effects...

Exemple in social engineering:
You have 6 types of changes you can make.
You have 6 types of effects it can have.
Possible changes: oppression, taxes...
Consequent effects: on science, on population control...


Would this be nice AND complete?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by moomin
Well, given they left in only the slider you'd feel ideologically compelled to crank up to max each time, I feel your pain.

I won´t go into in-depth discussion of my political opinions here, because Ming restricts me, if I do ; however, I´ll say this:

I believe Palaeoconservatives and the Left (as opposed to Liberals) are on the same side in one respect, namely that both believe a society can be TOO open.

That said, this is why I dislike simplicity: A lot depends on exactly WHOM you oppress -the rich or the poor, for example- and IN WHAT RESPECT -culturally, socially, economically, politically, religiously? There is no system where nobody is oppressed in any respect, and there is no system where everybody is repressed in every respect -this is why I hate this screenshot. It spells STUPID -purely and simply. Maybe we can even agree on this for a change.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by moomin
...but remember the orion dealing and wheeling is still in.

Doesn´t console me at all. MOO Diplomacy is ok, with or without Orion, it was Race INTERNAL policies I was most looking forward to.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Trifna
Still, even if not ultra-complex, we could try to make it complete. Like not more bars and all, but each bar can have many effects...

Exemple in social engineering:
You have 6 types of changes you can make.
You have 6 types of effects it can have.
Possible changes: oppression, taxes...
Consequent effects: on science, on population control...


Would this be nice AND complete?

What is so depressing about the screenshot is that things are not any more inter-related. Everything should influence everything, as it is you can make few changes, and even those have only ONE effect each.

[Comrade Tribune]

Btw, what about 'THE SPEECH', another centerpiece of the design I was looking forward to? With simplistic or no social engineering, The Speech doesn´t make a lot of sense anymore, so it´s probably out as well?! Now, where is that puke smiley already?

[RolandtheMad]

They got rid of the various sliders because as they said there were too many and it was unclear what the results of adjusting them were. Perhaps 'oppression' should be renamed 'openess' or 'internal security'?

As far as I can tell 'the speech' is still there under 'cassus belle'.. right?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by RolandtheMad
They got rid of the various sliders because as they said there were too many and it was unclear what the results of adjusting them were. Perhaps 'oppression' should be renamed 'openess' or 'internal security'?

As far as I can tell 'the speech' is still there under 'cassus belle'.. right?

Yes, there were too many sliders ...could have made for an interesting game, really. Great idea to take them out. *insert 3 puke smileys here*

That the combined results of diverse adjustments are at first unclear is exactly as it should have been. The fun is in figuring that out. Obviously Emrich understood this, and some of the dumber playtesters didn´t...

The Speech, as I understood Emrich, could have many different contents and purposes, not just a one-dimensional means of acquiring a casus belli, seemingly they have succeeded to destroy the subtlety of this as well. GREAT. *insert 5 puke smileys here*

[RolandtheMad]

Hmmm... guess I`ll add these to my 'cuts' thread.