spying note

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Orcus
1> I would steal about four techs (fewer later on)
2> they'd get mad and demand something from me (which I refuse), declare war
3> I switch from steal tech to blowstuffup mode
4> after about five or six buildings going poof, they ask for peace, if they didn't offer anything I told them to piss off
5> Their fleet arrives and gets ground to dust under my starbase and planet defense
6> more stuff gets blown up
7> They come back asking for peace again, this time offering something. If it was a pile of money or a system, I took it and went back to stealing tech. Repeat.

Orcus you must lead a charmed life. I have played hundreds of Moo2 games, 95% or more since 1.31. In fact nearly 100 this year alone all but a few at Hard or Impossible and have not seen this behavior after 1.2. I will admit, I have not used spying in many until very recently, so I am not prepared to dismiss the possiblity, only I do not have much hope.
My std events is :
1 - steal and soon get caught. 50/50 they demand stop the rest they decalre war.
2 - I may switch to sabatoge, but not if they have stuff I need and I am not going after them at this time.
3 - no matter how much I steal or destroy they never even contact me (regardless if I am rep or not).
4 - they attack and sometimes I defeat them and others they just block me until I get a fleet that can defeat them. If I have a new planet or outpost it will be lost.
5 - I take system after system, wreck ship after ship and never hear from them. If they are all within reach I eliminate them, if not I offer peace to go on to someone else. They often get eliminated by someone else soon.

I would say that spying can be fun, but I will submit that those picks are better spent on prodcution and science. Wait to get the spy techs and crank out lots of spies and then you can steal anyway. Once I get techs up through cyber link, I will be able to steal or sabatoge and still have those picks to use to get to this point much sooner. I think a +6 picks for spying on impossible level is going to put you in a very big hole, unless you do get those surrender systems and soon. Many races will just show up with a fleet you can not stop with their extra picks. Remember at imposible the AI can get up to +25 picks. That means they may spend 35 picks. That makes them very strong and out the gate with a vengence. If the more aggressive ones are near you, it could be fatal. In all of this I am using straight up play, no cheats, no editor, no refit ploys. These will not impact surrendering, but can keep one alive and prosperous when they should not be.

[vmxa1]

BTW the way lest there be any confusion, I am not challenging any thing you have said. I take it as gospel. My experiences are just that and not the rule of the game. A meer sampling of a very long continum.

[moomin]

I have to agree with vmxa. With 1.31 impossible, having played more games than I can keep count of, I have yet to see an AI coming for peace no matter how hard I stop them. I have very occassionally managed to get a peace contacting them myself after giving them a severe beating - but a peace is the best, they certainly don't throw in techs or systems.

I suggest you check if you really use 1.31. It sure as heck doesn't sound like that to me.

[vmxa1]

Most of the Cd's had 1.2 on them, so you would need to install the patch. I rolled one out to Cd with the patch on it as I have installed so many times. I had many systems (three at home now and 4 others at other sites) and then will reinstall the OS from time to time so it just saved time.
I meant to ask you if this worked withl less spying picks or did you need the full +6? IOW it will be easier to try with a better race that had +3 or even 0 for spying. For a long time I use -spying, but not anymore. I no longer like -spy, lowG I would rather have Rep, since the AI hates you anyway. The only place you can tell for sure is at load time. When the gate swings out to choose load, etc, below it is the version number.

[Orcus]

Thanks for not screaming "BS", that happens all the time on diablo forum... I'm certain it was under the recent patch (because you getting trade/research treaties is like pulling teeth in recent patch, and it was), and I'm certain it was hard diff (always hard instead of impossible when doing exotics), although I must admit it could have been a medium map instead of large. I think it was large, but not positive.

I don't doubt you haven't made it happen again, either... I've only ever flown that way once myself, out of maybe six tries (it was the second go). I usually play troopy or buildy species, but occasionally try to exploit the hell out of one aspect of the game just to see if it's enough on its own. Democratic Trader +BC species was really hard, for example.

I see one difference in our approaches...I only ever engaged in offensive military action against repulsives. Even if the others were at war with me, which they often were, I didn't send fleets at them. Towards endgame, the lower eschelon of remaining aliens did get "absorbed"...usually in a matter of a few rounds, of course. But early through mid-game, I just stood there and took it if they came at me.

The antarans ignored me until late, as I was relatively small. Once I was larger they started hammering away.

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure now it must have been a medium map, I never got attacked by any of the massive fleets I'd expect from a larger map. Then again, maybe their ships were blowing up left and right...

Anyway, I look forward to seeing if you can duplicate this. Or at least enjoy the superspies while trying.

[vmxa1]

Ok, no attacking. So the only reseason to pick tele was for the spy bonus. I may change my choices for research then to ensure I have fighter garrison and planetary missile bases if I am to turtle. I guess I better look to see who other than sillies can be respulsive. I see why you may want +food is you are not going to capture planets. Expansion to new planets will be very tough. Hummmm.

[Orcus]

Telepathy came in handy later for the absorbtion of the little guys, that would have been very difficult without it. So many wasted resources on troops...techs aren't a problem, but still...

Anyway, races known to me to end up repulsive: Trills, Sakra, Bulrathi, Darlok...maybe others, those I know for sure. Won't happen as often on hard as on impossible, of course.

[Bladz]

A note about game versions

When you load MOO II on the first screen look at the bottom right. It will tell you what version you are playing.
Like mine says:
V 1.31

To clear up any confusion.

[Bladz]

Also a note about trade/research treaties.
Most races will not take them until a few turns after you meet. In fact I can't remember any taking anything.. they always tell me no in some manner.
Just wait 8-20 turns and pop it on them.. They will take it unless your losing bad.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Orcus
Telepathy came in handy later for the absorbtion of the little guys, that would have been very difficult without it. So many wasted resources on troops...techs aren't a problem, but still...

Anyway, races known to me to end up repulsive: Trills, Sakra, Bulrathi, Darlok...maybe others, those I know for sure. Won't happen as often on hard as on impossible, of course.

The later it is in the game the easier it is for me to do anything I want, so I think tele must be used very early or don't pick, just so you know.
In the current game (2nd today) only Saks are repulsive so that means no conquest by your guidelines as they have not declare war on me so far. I am now at war with Klacs and Meks. So, how do I get them to feel they should deal with me when I have been able to frame someone else for the sabatoge so often? Anyway I have had scores of turns with war and many act of destruction, including the few ships they have sent, but no response so far. This is the race you mentioned +6 spy etc. I even got super breaks on leaders as I have two scientist (one more I did not hire) and dig this Matrix. Starts with 45% sci 45% spirit 6 to telepath and some for assination. So I am a real super spy race now. 2-3 consecutive turns has me sabatoging both races at once. They do not seem to mind at all. It is turn 262.

[vmxa1]

Wow got Gov Vott right after last post 75 finance 75 sci megawealth 37 research. Now have Urro/Kirsus/Matrix/Vott all sci/research types. Emo had shown up as well. I had to break your rule as I noticed Meks were down to one planet and a fleet was headed its way. Since I had sabatoge all defences and had just made my BB, I sent it over to mind control. They were not going to surrender anyway. In fact since it is HW they could not. Which reminds me, in the past I often would demand systems and see most were unsurrenderable. Anyway I would be happen if they even contacted me to just offer peace, to see it work. I am about to give up the ghost after this game. Iwould do the same to the klacs as they are down to two planets and no defences, but they are out of reach. Someone will get them after all of my work. I have stolen nearly everything that has been learned.

[vmxa1]

Well it is over now, no luck, no offers. I eliminated a few races when they were on the verge of going out, but did not really go after anyone. With the smaller map and the great leaders, I got so strong that at the end I was blowing up the second place Saks stuff and they never even complained, let alone go to war. Took down Orion and accepted the vote. Even for a Hard level this was an easy game. I had gotten a super officer and then of course Loknar and his Avenger along with X-armor, so it was pointless to go on.

[moomin]

You didn't see any begging for peace, did you?

[vmxa1]

Not even a hint. I played Moo1 on impossible last night and the AI would ask for peace all the way to the end. I always felt the final patch for Moo2 was too rigid. Even when it is being pasted, it does not ask for peace. You can take all planets and be sitting on its last one with a monster fleet and not be contacted. At least that is my experience. That may change at the lowest level such as Easy, I can not say.

Edit: That was not clear. I do not mean the last planet for the game, just that race. It will ask for peace when it is the last one, but not offer anything.

[moomin]

Well, that's rather my experience as well. One of the thing SMAC did well was how meek the AIs would become when you stomped them - I really liked to hear'em beg.