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**vmxa1** · July 1, 2002, 13:02

I used to not bother with spies, but when you play at impossible and are non creative, it is required. Early I will put a few up for defence. Soon I will start to have one planet crank them out almost non stop. I will steal everything (and destroy things as well if at war). If I am creative, I will really pile up spies on defence in the mid game, so they can not steal anything that they are missing. I do not recall anyone stealing from me once I got near the 63 max for def spies.

**Orcus** · July 8, 2002, 15:51

One of my favorite custom job species were the spy masters. I took everything I could get for my spies, worked towards spy techs, etc.

I found that I never needed to fight a war. I had full spies on all opponents civs, and would keep them on "Espianoge" when at peace. Eventually, they'd get sick of me sucking them dry, and declare war. So I'd switch to "Sabotage" and they'd start losing improvements every turn or so. Eventually, they'd show up asking for peace, offering entire solar systems for me to stop blowing up their school busses. I ended up conquering a majority of the galaxy on a militarily defensive footing the whole time...I never fired a shot in aggression, just let my spies deal with it.

**vmxa1** · July 8, 2002, 16:59

Originally posted by Orcus
Eventually, they'd get sick of me sucking them dry, and declare war. So I'd switch to "Sabotage" and they'd start losing improvements every turn or so. Eventually, they'd show up asking for peace, offering entire solar systems for me to stop blowing up their school busses.

Spying with that type of race is fun. I can not say that I have taken it to that extreme though. As to giving up systems, I am guessing you are talking about v1.2 as it was notorious for giving away systems. I have never had them give me one without my demanding on 1.31 and even then it is often rejected.
What was the game level? I would suspect that you will have less succes at not being attacked at impossible. I have made buffed out spying races and stole like crazy, but I had to fend off attacks and expand. If you are not strong and able to expand you will not get by with stealing and sabatoge. To get those spy picks you have to forgo production or research picks or something useful. What is the full set of picks and game setting? I would like to try it out and see what happens.

**vmxa1** · July 8, 2002, 18:27

Ok here is a report on one test: Creative (to get all boost) Rep (no friends needed) - Ship att - ship def (if we get past the start we will not need them) +1 research +growth Huge Impossible Org rich 8 players and prewarp.
Around turn 88 sillies show up with 4 systems, me one with 2 planets.
T130 sillies had destroyed my outpost and attacked at HW with 3 ships and I was blockade for a long time, lost a spy.
T134 sent scout and cruiser to attack
t140 dest one frigate with fleet
t144 captured Vulcan dest DD with fleet
T160 had sabatoged 3 items so far (2 sb)
t161 got scanner, spy/agent 30/40%
t164 spy got SB
t181 spy got sb again same on T198
t199 spy/agent 35/45%
t201 refit CA to have fast racks and some mercs attacked 4 ship and got 1
t207 dusted 3 BB with 2 CA while attacking Septum
t212 got 1 ship with fleet, spy got Biosphere
t217 spy got barracks
t218 attack with fleet and got SB, spy got space academy
t222 captured septum
So if this is at all representitive of max sying at impossible in v131, when are they going to cry uncle?
This is what I see in v1.31, the AI almost never asks for peace once war starts on impossible. Note, I had gone on the offensive as well and they still are not asking for peace after many sabatoge acts and two planets lost and a number of ships.

**ravagon** · July 8, 2002, 22:04

My favourite race tended to have to take spying penalties so by and large I've always hurried to set up a defensive cordon while rushing for techs to alleviate my espionage penalties (and rushing ships to take out the darloks

).
Anybody know exactly what a larger number of defensive spies does for you? - Quantitatively I mean?
I presume you get some form of diminishing returns coming in somewhere - ie: espionage efforts would almost always fail if an enemy spy group (5 or so spies?) had to get through all 60-odd of my defensive spies - even given the enemys bonuses.
Or, how much harder is it for them to penetrate 60 spies than it is to penetrate 40?

On another note: Orcus is back? THE Orcus??

Welcome back.
You wouldn't remember me though as I didn't really post very often back in your heyday.

**vmxa1** · July 8, 2002, 22:12

Nothing definitive. I can only say that I got hit with espionage last night when I had 59 spies. When I have the max (63), I have not been hit. So I try to get max ASAP. I had no spy penalities, but no bonus either, just the tech you tend to get. I used to always take -spy, but no longer on impossible. Mainly just leave it at 0.

**moomin** · July 9, 2002, 09:07

On impossible, wars are pretty much fixed once they've started. I've gotten a peace or two occationally, but it has never been offered. And handing over systems to stop spying is unheard of, of course. I kinda suspect theis is v1.2 and a level below imp as well.

**Orcus** · July 9, 2002, 13:09

I play 1.3 patch, or whatever is most recent. Generally play on Hard with Large map for exotic species picks, or Impossible Large map with more standard ass-whippin' types.

Race picks for superspies were, most notably, telepathic +20 spies and lowgrav to even the picks. I usually try for +1 food, to get a bit of a boost early on, but I don't remember if that was a part of the SuperSpies or not.

The Sakra were most memorable to me for giving up systems, which of course is awesome. The repulsives never gave me one, but I just kept on sabotaging them to keep them in check, which worked out pretty well.

And they weren't handing over systems to stop spying...they were handing them over for peace.

They actually attacked me pretty frequently. Fortunately, my planetary defenses were upgraded by the various techs I had stolen.

I don't think this type of species is a 100% win by any means, but it is certainly viable. And certainly fun.

**vmxa1** · July 9, 2002, 15:42

Thanks for the post Orcus. BTW 1.31 is the latest version, not much difference with it and 1.3. It was 1.2 that was silly. I had races declare war on me and neither of us fought and a few turns later they offered me a system for peace. That and Creative was only 6 picks.
There is a huge difference in how the AI plays between Hard and Impossible, so I will go with Hard for the test and see if any one offers me any systems for peace. As I said, I do not every recall that happening on impossible regardless of race traits for tactics. The game I just race with superspies, no one ever even contacted me, once they declared war. I would bust 30 to 40 ships in some battles and take colony after colony, not a peep. That was Huge/Impossible and I was repulsive, so we will see.

**vmxa1** · July 9, 2002, 17:00

Ok, preliminary report. Large map, Hard 8 players. Race Tele +20spy -lowG +1 food -GC LHW.
Not easy to play even on hard. War soon after contact with Psilons and they were far ahead on tech. Finally ousted them and they never contacted me during the war even when down to their last planet. War with Humans after I refused demand. Only one planet in my home system other than mine. I now have the 4 systems, but three are barely started, no defences or much production. I have stolen a number of useful stuff including very early (missile bases). It wil be a stuggle, but can be won. 20-30 more turns and then it will be easier, but by then Tele is not very useful. I say that as the hard part from now on will be to best the defences, if you do that what difference does it make if I am tele or not. I guess the assimilation is good, but I would rather have those picks for research or production. So anyway it does not seem to me that in 1.31 hard or impossible, you are likely to get any systms bequeathed to you or even get peace at all if you wait for them to offer peace. I just have never seen it.

**Bladz** · July 9, 2002, 17:22

The only race you mentioned were the psilons. They always begin builiding a defensive spy network. Also, I think they seem to have the least tolerance for spying.
Not that I have seen anyone offering up systems in v 1.31 eigther but what bad luck to meet the toughest race right off the bat.
The only thing I have ever had offered to me in v 1.31 is tribute and tech. This was on impossible.

Just my 2 cents

**vmxa1** · July 9, 2002, 19:18

Yup, I did not like seeing them so soon. The good news is no creatives left to worry about. Elerians were next up and I whacked them down to a few systems I could not reach and offer them peace and they were happy to get it. Humans then and they are gone. Meks out, someone else did it. War now with Klacs, they were largest at the time and I had not yet been nominated. They are now not nominated and I am on the left (most pop). Gnolams and I have had research treaty for some time. I got three good colony leaders CHug/Yott and Xantus and three decent officers and now Loknar. Just a matter of time now. It was rough, but it is fun to blow up stuff and steal with impunity. No offers have come for peace as you might have guessed. Still got to wonder if it was a 1.2. I can not say about 1.3 as I do not recall it. The readme mention little difference.The other race is Saks and I won't bother withcapture and transporting them as it will be pointless. Likely will just take the vote to some work after one more race goes out. I want to give the max chance for a surrender offer. Oh, that is what happened to one race they surrendered to the klacs and that is what put them in front for so long.

**Orcus** · July 10, 2002, 10:02

Psilons are a bad break, they are always a problem for the superspies. Klacs suck pretty bad too, their xenophobic tendencies are very pronounced.

Odd that nobody's offered you systems, I'm positive I had latest patch (didn't even start playing until after they stopped patching). I think they may have done it because they didn't have anything else to offer me, having no money and no tech I hadn't already stolen.

Dunno, try again unless it's boring the bujeezus out of you. As I said, those are some nasty neighbors to have. I recall the Bulrathi (non-repulsive), Sakra (also non-repulsive), Meklar, and Alkari all following the same pattern...

1> I would steal about four techs (fewer later on)
2> they'd get mad and demand something from me (which I refuse), declare war
3> I switch from steal tech to blowstuffup mode
4> after about five or six buildings going poof, they ask for peace, if they didn't offer anything I told them to piss off
5> Their fleet arrives and gets ground to dust under my starbase and planet defense
6> more stuff gets blown up
7> They come back asking for peace again, this time offering something. If it was a pile of money or a system, I took it and went back to stealing tech. Repeat.

**vmxa1** · July 10, 2002, 11:33

I suspect that I would have lost the game if it was on impossible. I was in such a hole for a long time. I would drop the food boost and take production or at least +1 research. A tele needs to get a capitol ship up and running before your neighbor can improve its defences. A starbase that is naked can be be beat by one missile cruiser. If they get heavy armor or worse a missile base you will need two cruiser, maybe more. The bad luck of getting Psilons, means they are very likely to have those improvemnts very soon. Especially once war is declared. My low production meant slow research as well. It was so bad, the the Gnolams stole from me before I could get enough spies in place to stop them. If you do not have the spy techs and they do, you are vulnerable. I would rather have +3 for spy than +6 so you could take RHW/LHW. Having a standard HW hurts a tele (well anyone) as you can not get off to the fast start. I had only one planet in my system other than mine. So I had 6/12 pop start. You can not do much with that.

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