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  • #46
    (Posted by Alan on the Delphi forum, 10/30/2001):

    Here's a note from Bill Fisher, Kingpin of Quicksilver Software:

    Actually, designing the AI has been more time-consuming than it has been difficult. We'll know for sure when we start our testing. The key has been to plan the game from the beginning so that each AI module has a well-defined, carefully limited set of tasks to perform, and to make sure that each of those tasks can be broken down into a simple set of need-based decisions.

    I have two rules for writing game AI:

    1. Don't do anything that looks stupid.
    2. Try to do things that look smart.

    In most games, the challenge is getting past item #1. That's often quite difficult. For example, in Conquest of the New World, we gave the AI a detailed list of buildings that needed to be constructed in each city, and the preferred order in which they were to be built. But we also had to tell it about a number of special cases, such as when there's not enough land and it needed to tear down something which is no longer productive to replace it with something that's now needed. These sequences were based on months of careful human play and analysis.

    In Castles II, we addressed this challenge by creating a design where simply making "reasonable" choices from a well-defined sequence of play would result in very effective AI behavior. In formal mathematical terms, I like to say that "local optimization equals global optimization" -- that is, doing what looks smart from a very narrow view of the world tends to be the right choice. We're trying for the same approach in MOO3. Not all game designs are like this. In chess, in fact, it's often the exact opposite. Capturing your opponent's Queen with that pawn, while it looks good right now, will often lead to a game-losing chain of events one or two turns down the road.

    For MOO3, here's what we've done:

    1. Modularize: break down the game into small, simple sub-units with clearly defined rules and decision processes.

    Needless to say, simulating an entire galaxy is a daunting challenge. We took a "divide and conquer" approach, picking a clear and easily understood metaphor to help us keep it straight in our own minds. From the very start, the galaxy was divided into various departments, just like a government would be. Each was given a set of tasks, which were assigned to various leaders within the department.

    I often worry about getting too abstract and theoretical in AI design. It's tempting to build a monument to your own ingenuity, which nobody else can understand. The advantage of this departmental model is that it's quite easy to see how the various aspects of a galactic empire can be organized. It's somewhat abstract, but virtually everything has a clear equivalent in current human governmental structures, so the designers didn't get lost in abstruse mathematical abstractions. Everything boiled down to a relatively simple analogy with a familiar system.

    Once the departments and sub-departments were laid out, the designers then worked through each system, one at a time, to make sure that its responsibilities were clear. Usually, this ended up looking a lot like a board game design. Alan, Tom and I have played lots of board games together over the years, and we like to think in the clean, elegant style that's required by such games. Early in the design process, I spent a lot of time talking with Alan about the departments, and was happy to see that each one essentially had a "combat results table" with a set of modifiers. This gave them plenty of variety, yet was simple enough that I could see how to write a very effective AI with minimal risk.

    2. Stabilize: Design each subsystem so it's inherently stable

    I wrote my first simulation game in 1975 (on punch cards). The first lesson I learned was that it's very easy to design a system that spirals off into disaster. For example, if a lack of food causes farmers to die immediately, reducing production, then any slight food shortage will quickly kill off the entire population. That's a simple system that tends toward instability. I like to think of this metaphorically as balancing a marble on a bowl that's been turned upside-down. The marble will quickly roll slightly to one side, picking up speed and rolling even faster as it falls toward the edge.

    What we want to do is design systems that act like a marble inside a bowl that's right-side up. In a system like that, no matter where you put the marble, it will tend to roll back toward the center. This is what I mean by "inherently stable." That's how we've designed the individual systems in MOO3. They can swing a great deal from side to side, but they tend not to spiral out of control. There are checks and balances that always pull the system back from the precipice. That's not to say that they don't have interesting effects. The swings back and forth can be quite interesting. What it means is that they aren't fragile. Fragile systems in games are not fun.

    3. Rationalize: Create "need-based" systems.

    Instead of giving the AI (or the player) a long list of "stuff to build," give them a long list of specific needs with specific solutions. For example, instead of just allowing players or AIs to group ships in any way they want, define task forces around specific needs, such as a "planetary bombardment task force." At a higher level, give the AI a list of strategies to pursue. When the strategy says "attack a planet," it's then a simple matter to realize that this will require a bombardment task force, so the AI knows to build one.

    This approach, of course, requires a lot of careful pre-planning and understanding of what each leader in each department will want or need to do. But, once that's done, the hard part of the AI design is also done. The AI can simply choose a solution from a logically constructed list, influenced by various other factors that are similarly defined throughout the design. And the logic for making such a choice, because it's all based on a "need" orientation, is usually quite simple.


    That's a long explanation for a simple question, but I hope it shows how we're addressing this very large challenge. In the end, by breaking down a given decision into simple, clear parts that behave based on well-defined needs, we have essentially designed everything needed for the AI except the code and a few high-level strategies. By facing the challenges of the AI design from the start, we've minimized our risks and, as a secondary effect, created a system that's very easy for players to understand and enjoy.
    If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

    Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm happy to see that long answer, SH. While I, personally, could do with more maths and fewer words, there's no doubt he's at least thought of the worst traps and took pains to avoid them. How effective this will be remains to be seen, however.

      But even in optimized environs, AI is *difficult*. I program medical support systems (basically diagnosis support systems, giving doctors "a second opinion" based on a specific set of symptoms). We've generally found that the AI route is very improductive - we do almost all work based on a neural network model instead. Not for lack of trying, let me tell you, because NNs have specific drawbacks all by themselves. Or problem is, perhaps, more difficult, since it's impossible to modularize diagnostics in any meaningful way, but the problem you face is not exactly trivial either.

      And while I'm certain that the efforts you describe would've been adequate for Moo2, let's remember that Moo3 AI will not only have to be so-so, but spectacular. The IFP system guarantees that even the smallest weakness in AI will propagate up to the player in a way that will be quite infuriating. But I hope you guys will pull it off. It'd be revolutionary in more ways than one, if so.

      Good Luck!
      "The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
      "I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.

      Comment


      • #48
        I'm getting a little worried about MOO3 being too much alike a board game. What's great about computer games is the interaction! I hope that MOO3 isn't less interactive than MOO2 or other great TBS games.

        on the AI!
        "BANANA POWAAAAH!!! (exclamation Zopperoni style)" - Mercator, in the OT 'What fruit are you?' thread
        Join the Civ2 Democratic Game! We have a banana option in every poll just for you to vote for!
        Many thanks to Zealot for wasting his time on the jobs section at Gamasutra - MarkG in the article SMAC2 IN FULL 3D? http://apolyton.net/misc/
        Always thought settlers looked like Viking helmets. Took me a while to spot they were supposed to be wagons. - The pirate about Settlers in Civ 1

        Comment


        • #49
          I'm getting a little worried about MOO3 being too much alike a board game. What's great about computer games is the interaction! I hope that MOO3 isn't less interactive than MOO2 or other great TBS games.

          on the AI!
          "BANANA POWAAAAH!!! (exclamation Zopperoni style)" - Mercator, in the OT 'What fruit are you?' thread
          Join the Civ2 Democratic Game! We have a banana option in every poll just for you to vote for!
          Many thanks to Zealot for wasting his time on the jobs section at Gamasutra - MarkG in the article SMAC2 IN FULL 3D? http://apolyton.net/misc/
          Always thought settlers looked like Viking helmets. Took me a while to spot they were supposed to be wagons. - The pirate about Settlers in Civ 1

          Comment


          • #50
            Less interactive how? You've got more options than you had before, and it'll still be easy to interact with other players and the computer...what exactly are you worried about losing?
            If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

            Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

            Comment


            • #51
              Well, let me take Monopoly for example. From what I have been reading, letting Moo3 be like a board game might cause it to be a game where you are just playing "community chest" cards, not just to yourself, but to others. I think it will consume some considerable time, preventing players to feel earlier in the game that Megalomania feeling that characterizes Civ/MOO players.

              I don't think I'm criticizing anything. Neither saying it's not going to be fun. Nor that MOO3 is going to suck!
              No, I'm just sharing my concerns. Thank you for asking, Stormhound.
              "BANANA POWAAAAH!!! (exclamation Zopperoni style)" - Mercator, in the OT 'What fruit are you?' thread
              Join the Civ2 Democratic Game! We have a banana option in every poll just for you to vote for!
              Many thanks to Zealot for wasting his time on the jobs section at Gamasutra - MarkG in the article SMAC2 IN FULL 3D? http://apolyton.net/misc/
              Always thought settlers looked like Viking helmets. Took me a while to spot they were supposed to be wagons. - The pirate about Settlers in Civ 1

              Comment


              • #52
                Sounds like you're talking about the Event system mainly. There's certainly a big argument raging on the Delphi board about it (actually, it's starting to resemble the "Argument Clinic" sketch from Monty Python).

                I don't know if Megalomaniacs are going to be pleased anyhow...remember that IFP will hamper that "perfect control", as will things like having to deal with factional support and people who move around when they darned well feel like it.

                But I don't think you have to worry about MOO3 becoming little more than a board game, in either style or execution. Rather, we've tried to introduce elements that work in board games where they'll ALSO work in a computer game. The Event system as designed should work well with both (my opinion, counterarguments notwithstanding), and should help ratchet up the level of overall anxiety for the player another notch or so. The last thing we want to see is complacency.

                The events are just one part of things to which you must pay attention. The plan is that each has its moments of importance, but that none of them is always critical.
                If I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have done all the stuff that led me to what I know now...

                Former member, MOO3 Road Kill...er, Crew

                Comment


                • #53
                  The technical note about the AI is what I call " hard stuff, good stuff"....

                  Originally posted by Stormhound
                  The events are just one part of things to which you must pay attention. The plan is that each has its moments of importance, but that none of them is always critical.
                  Yep, this is one of the major mottos that every developer should keep in mind when designing a "complete" empire building game.
                  The art of mastering:"la Maîtrise des caprices du subconscient avant tout".

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    (actually, it's starting to resemble the "Argument Clinic" sketch from Monty Python).
                    Yes it has, and I'm guilty for a good portion of it.
                    Last edited by Sencho; November 2, 2001, 20:50.
                    -Sencho

                    "Even the clearest and most perfect circumstantial evidence is likely to be at fault, after all, and therefore ought to be received with great caution. " - Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Stormhound
                      ... and should help ratchet up the level of overall anxiety for the player another notch or so. The last thing we want to see is complacency.
                      I love games that support me in my already rampant paranoia.

                      A propos paranoia, I have a nagging suspicion you didn´t quite get my earlier (MOO-Alien) 'Three-Thumbs' joke.
                      Now, if I ask myself: Who profits from a War against Iraq?, the answer is: Israel. -Prof. Rudolf Burger, Austrian Academy of Arts

                      Free Slobo, lock up George, learn from Kim-Jong-Il.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Stormhound
                        Sounds like you're talking about the Event system mainly. There's certainly a big argument raging on the Delphi board about it (actually, it's starting to resemble the "Argument Clinic" sketch from Monty Python).

                        I don't know if Megalomaniacs are going to be pleased anyhow...remember that IFP will hamper that "perfect control", as will things like having to deal with factional support and people who move around when they darned well feel like it.
                        Mmm. But the IFP system plays straight into our magalomanic hands, that's the whole point. I'm not the PulseGun Mk 45 designer, I'm the Evil Overlord, I have hapless minions to attend those boring tasks. That's why I like the IFP, anyway. That it also reduces MM is a very nice perk. Megalomaniacs are not control freaks, you know. Not all the time, anyway.

                        But my personal beef with the event system is not only the skewed misfortune hitting the leader ("hitting the leader" is the duty of the other players, not of the universe, as it were) but the card metaphore itself. I quit playing board games because I found it tedious to deal with cards and dice - they empathically drive home that you're playing a game not running an empire. Gaming, much like other forms of entertainment is a mostly a matter of immerison and suspension of disbelief - and I think that both these elements are lost when you are forcibly reminded that you're dealing cards, not being Evil Overlord, all the time.

                        And I really, really hate that. Computers got invented so that we don't have to see the cards and the dice, dammit!

                        Oh well. As long as you can turn events of it's fine, I guess. Now that Civ 3 seems to be "more of the same", only slower and with additional sprinkling of even more AI cheating, I guess I should be happy that there is still a developer out there that's trying to do something interesting with a sequel.
                        "The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
                        "I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          CivIII is actually better than many (including me) expected, but Istill prefer the innovative MoO3 approach. As to cards/immersion, that could probably be solved by not calling the cards 'cards'.
                          Now, if I ask myself: Who profits from a War against Iraq?, the answer is: Israel. -Prof. Rudolf Burger, Austrian Academy of Arts

                          Free Slobo, lock up George, learn from Kim-Jong-Il.

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