Is MOO3 going to suck

[Internationalist]

MoO 3 Rocks!!

[Starfighter08]

Ethoi gone, Team victory gone....If the "high finance" and gov't agendas is canned too, only a remake/mix of MoO and MoO2 will remain. The IFP and this strange event engine aren't quite enough to justify a new release IMO. Thoughts?

Btw not the new ideas bother me but that there are too few of them and they get canned one by one.

[Stormhound]

Ordinarily, I wouldn't respond to such a post, but you're painting a highly inaccurate picture of things.

The terraforming model is new. The technology and research system is new. The concept of your people moving around without your guidance is new. The event engine is new. The economics is certainly a broader model than you're going to find elsewhere (and it's not exactly what you'd call a candidate for the chopping block, nor are the government agendas). In fact, a great many things are new in this game, especially compared to previous MOOs (ship combat with task forces, ground combat, internal politics, sub-leaders, corruption of leaders, multiple levels of "specials", mid-game player entry, planets AND MOONS to colonize with regions, a meaningful unrest and revolt system, internal piracy and security needs which require the presence of garrison ships and troops in your systems and on your worlds, military draft pools, a myriad of government policies, active forces vs. reserves, DEAs, more types of ground units, expanded espionage, expanded exploration of systems...have I come anywhere close to getting my point across yet?). If the only information you're getting on the game is through this forum, then frankly you haven't got very much idea what's going on at all, and you should get out to the website and the FAQ at the very least because you're missing a lot.

I'll also point out that we haven't announced any more cuts in a while (not a promise for the future, just a statement about the past), so it's hardly reasonable to talk about them being cut "one by one", which makes it sound as though we come out and announce another cut every week or so.

If you want to rip us for something we've done, go for it...but at least make sure you're accurate, because I'm not going to be shy about returning fire if I think you're off the mark.

[Starfighter08]

Originally posted by Stormhound
Ordinarily, I wouldn't respond to such a post, but you're painting a highly inaccurate picture of things.

Well then, thank you very much for doing it then.

Originally posted by Stormhound
The terraforming model is new. The technology and research system is new.

Ok, true the tech system is far better than anything existing at this time.

Originally posted by Stormhound
The concept of your people moving around without your guidance is new.

Hu? I read the whole official sit two weeks or so ago but didn't see it (admittedly it was quite late at night )

Originally posted by Stormhound
The event engine is new.

I have some trouble with it because it remembers me of all the monopoly sessions (take a card ) or some RPGs. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong however.

Originally posted by Stormhound
The economics is certainly a broader model than you're going to find elsewhere (and it's not exactly what you'd call a candidate for the chopping block, nor are the government agendas).

I'm very glad to hear that they won't be canned. I must say I'm quite fed up with these "planned economies" you usually get in TBS (gov't owned factories, supermarkets, TV stations just to name a few).

Originally posted by Stormhound
In fact, a great many things are new in this game, especially compared to previous MOOs (ship combat with task forces,

Star Wars Rebellion

Originally posted by Stormhound
ground combat,

Imperium Galactica (not quite the same but you still have quite some impact here)

Originally posted by Stormhound
internal politics,

As far as I know the guys of "Galactic Civilizations" are trying something with a senate and different parties (I could be wrong here)

Originally posted by Stormhound
sub-leaders, corruption of leaders,

Pax Imperia (I was quite shocked when I realized for the first time that a certain system governor's boni had become negative and fired him right away )

Originally posted by Stormhound
multiple levels of "specials",

Quite curious about that. Do you mean black ops and such things?

Originally posted by Stormhound
mid-game player entry,

Fugger2 (no, that's not swearing the Fugger were a wealthy family in 16/17 century Europe, the game is from a German developer AFAIK and the mid game entering player gets something like the average of the others' wealth.

Originally posted by Stormhound
planets AND MOONS to colonize with regions, a meaningful unrest and revolt system,

By meaningful you mean better than civ and similar games I assume.

Originally posted by Stormhound
internal piracy and security needs which require the presence of garrison ships and troops in your systems and on your worlds,

SW Rebellion has some rudimentary garrison requirements for conquered territories but that's about all.

Originally posted by Stormhound
military draft pools, a myriad of government policies,

Europa Universalis has draft pools defined for every province and some gov't policies and EU2 is said (whatever that means) to have even more.

Originally posted by Stormhound
active forces vs. reserves, DEAs, more types of ground units, expanded espionage, expanded exploration of systems...have I come anywhere close to getting my point across yet?).

Yep. The game's back on my must have list, congratulations.

Originally posted by Stormhound
If the only information you're getting on the game is through this forum, then frankly you haven't got very much idea what's going on at all, and you should get out to the website and the FAQ at the very least because you're missing a lot.

As I said before, I visited your hp once (darn it really must have been late).

Originally posted by Stormhound
I'll also point out that we haven't announced any more cuts in a while (not a promise for the future, just a statement about the past), so it's hardly reasonable to talk about them being cut "one by one", which makes it sound as though we come out and announce another cut every week or so.

Since I read about the society system these guys of "Clash of Civilizations" are trying to implement I'm quite in love (don't laugh it's true) with a fleshed out societies/politics/religion in TBS games and so far I've waited in vain for such a thing being implemented.

Originally posted by Stormhound
If you want to rip us for something we've done, go for it...but at least make sure you're accurate, because I'm not going to be shy about returning fire if I think you're off the mark.

Return fire at will, my armor and dodge ratings are good enough to stand quite some barrages. And again, thanks for answering in such detail.

[Stormhound]

Well, if that's the definition of "new" you're going to use, then I have some very bad news for you...not one single thing is new (except maybe the tech system, but I'm not sure and since it was my baby someone else had best judge)...I can go through my collection of old board wargames and find examples of all of them. (No, don't ask me to.) Alan's collection is far bigger than mine, so if I haven't got one...

But these things are certainly new to the MOO series, and there probably aren't many games out there that have half or more of the list I gave. This is not, to paraphrase the commercial, your father's MOO. (g)

People moving around has been discussed both here and on the MOO3 forum. I haven't said a whole lot about it yet, but I've nibbled the edges of the topic. Short version: if people don't like the places you give them to live, they'll move. Some will move elsewhere within your empire, some will start new colonies all on their own, and some will tell you just what you can do with your planet and go join someone else's empire. We're not talking stampedes, here, but certainly enough that it might be worth your while to improve conditions.

No, multiple specials doesn't mean black ops. You remember how, for instance, planets in MOO2 could have specials like "natives" or "splinter colony" or "gold mine" or things like that? Well, specials in MOO3 are of several possible levels of scope, both higher AND lower than planetary. BTW, the espionage model does include things that I believe would be classified as "black ops". It's far more robust than the MOO1/2 models.

I know who the Fuggers were. I paid attention in history class, and they made their money largely through banking and merchant trade if memory serves. And just another interesting tidbit: Alan Emrich (the lead designer) used to be a history teacher, back before he got into the game industry. So you've got some ejumacated people working this game, yup!

[Starfighter08]

Originally posted by Stormhound
Well, if that's the definition of "new" you're going to use, then I have some very bad news for you...not one single thing is new (except maybe the tech system, but I'm not sure and since it was my baby someone else had best judge)...I can go through my collection of old board wargames and find examples of all of them. (No, don't ask me to.) Alan's collection is far bigger than mine, so if I haven't got one...

But these things are certainly new to the MOO series, and there probably aren't many games out there that have half or more of the list I gave. This is not, to paraphrase the commercial, your father's MOO. (g)

I'll settle with this definition of new.

Originally posted by Stormhound
People moving around has been discussed both here and on the MOO3 forum. I haven't said a whole lot about it yet, but I've nibbled the edges of the topic. Short version: if people don't like the places you give them to live, they'll move. Some will move elsewhere within your empire, some will start new colonies all on their own, and some will tell you just what you can do with your planet and go join someone else's empire. We're not talking stampedes, here, but certainly enough that it might be worth your while to improve conditions.

So voting with the feet (ships) is simulated

Originally posted by Stormhound
No, multiple specials doesn't mean black ops. You remember how, for instance, planets in MOO2 could have specials like "natives" or "splinter colony" or "gold mine" or things like that? Well, specials in MOO3 are of several possible levels of scope, both higher AND lower than planetary. BTW, the espionage model does include things that I believe would be classified as "black ops". It's far more robust than the MOO1/2 models.

Ah, those specials...

Originally posted by Stormhound
I know who the Fuggers were. I paid attention in history class, and they made their money largely through banking and merchant trade if memory serves. And just another interesting tidbit: Alan Emrich (the lead designer) used to be a history teacher, back before he got into the game industry. So you've got some ejumacated people working this game, yup!

It's just that I didn't know you would know such "details" about European history. Sorry, no offense intended.

A history teacher? Who would have thought that? For some odd reason I imagine game developers being some computer cracks just taken some things/events and stuffing them into their games. The fact that I study economics and that economies in TBS games (capitalism et al. excluded of course) hardly ever come close to anything like a free enterprise (or then it's something like "lower taxes and growth will increase", yea right) that prejudice grew even stronger.

[Stormhound]

Certainly no offense taken. We've got a mix of people. Among the non-QS people who are also helping with the design, we have a Doctor of Philosophy (not just a Ph.D., his doctorate is IN Philosophy), a geologist, an author, a marine biologist...and yes, there are some people who do know how to program, too.

I can't comment on what kind of people you see in other development houses (and it would probably be imprudent of me to do so even if I could), but there are some good minds and real fans of the MOO series working on this title, and even if half of the concepts we're putting together DID get cut...not that I have any reason to expect that they would...we'd still have a heck of a game.

Anyhow, glad to see that you're feeling better about it all. And now to get back to the business of delivering all these neat things...

(Y'know, this "the server is too busy" stuff is getting annoying...)

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Stormhound
People moving around has been discussed both here and on the MOO3 forum.

This IS a MOO3 forum!

Originally posted by Stormhound
I haven't said a whole lot about it yet, but I've nibbled the edges of the topic. Short version: if people don't like the places you give them to live, they'll move. Some will move elsewhere within your empire, some will start new colonies all on their own, and some will tell you just what you can do with your planet and go join someone else's empire. We're not talking stampedes, here, but certainly enough that it might be worth your while to improve conditions.

So, there's a little of simCity in MOO3, right?

Originally posted by Stormhound
I know who the Fuggers were. I paid attention in history class, and they made their money largely through banking and merchant trade if memory serves. And just another interesting tidbit: Alan Emrich (the lead designer) used to be a history teacher, back before he got into the game industry. So you've got some ejumacated people working this game, yup!

Wasn't a Fugger a Founding Father in Colonization?

[Stormhound]

Actually, Alan has said that he's definitely been trying for something of a "SimGalaxy", where the whole thing feels alive because the players aren't in control of every minute detail and there are always things happening whether the player acts or not.

In my mind, it's like a good role-playing campaign: the game world should give the impression that it has its own business to attend to, and is going to get on with it rather than waiting breathlessly for the players to do everything. It just feels more interesting that way.

[Stormhound]

For those who haven't seen it, http://www.quartertothree.com/ has chipped in their two cents worth on MOO3. You'll be able to guess my opinion of their comments after you've read them, I'm sure.

Go tell them what you think, good or bad. Tell us what you think. Heck, tell anybody what you think. We're big, we can take it.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Stormhound
Actually, Alan has said that he's definitely been trying for something of a "SimGalaxy", where the whole thing feels alive because the players aren't in control of every minute detail and there are always things happening whether the player acts or not.

In my mind, it's like a good role-playing campaign: the game world should give the impression that it has its own business to attend to, and is going to get on with it rather than waiting breathlessly for the players to do everything. It just feels more interesting that way.

Three thumbs up to this!

[Stormhound]

Three thumbs? Sounds like I need to introduce you to the Delphi board's resident Motie.

[Sarxis]

Re: Is MOO3 going to suck

Originally posted by Garth Vader
Nowadays I am always worried about new versions of old favorites. So what do you think?

I am concerned that the starlane concept will bring the game one step closer to a warp point based game which I think always sucks. Although I am interested in seeing how they implement many things like the combat and the imperial focus.

Well the truth is- it seems as if TBS could be making a solid comeback. I just got CivIII, and all I can say is that it is as solid, revolutionary, and yet holding fast to the basics of the previous games, that it just makes the whole experience phenomenal!

I think MOO3 is going to be the same. I feel that the TBS genre has been 'pruned' so to speak, so that the only developers left are the original greats. MOO and CIV are the two pillars of might when it comes to TBS.

[Master Marcus]

Re: Re: Is MOO3 going to suck

Originally posted by Anunikoba
Well the truth is- it seems as if TBS could be making a solid comeback. I just got CivIII, and all I can say is that it is as solid, revolutionary, and yet holding fast to the basics of the previous games, that it just makes the whole experience phenomenal!

I think MOO3 is going to be the same. I feel that the TBS genre has been 'pruned' so to speak, so that the only developers left are the original greats. MOO and CIV are the two pillars of might when it comes to TBS.

Exactly what I said in details in my column I've recently sent ( still don't know if and when they'll print it ) - less one thing : Civ III is solid but not revolutionary, and meets so far my expectations after a couple of gameplay hours last night. The revolution is yet to come...

[moomin]

Re: Re: Re: Is MOO3 going to suck

Originally posted by Master Marcus

Civ III is solid but not revolutionary, and meets so far my expectations after a couple of gameplay hours last night. The revolution is yet to come...

Yup. That's why we're all hoping for QS to pull Moo3 off. If they manage to actually implement the IFP system w/out making the player tear their hair at the AIs moronic choises in same, then there will be a revolution!

But the risks... Anyone ever tried playing Moo2 with tac combat off? Having the AI do your ship design was atrocious, for lack of better word. If the AIs that the IFP system relies upon perform even close to that, Moo3 will be unplayable.

But I will buy it nevertheless.