A tip for trading

[Badtz Maru]

I used to get frustrated trading techs with the AIs because I had no easy way of seeing what the research point cost of the techs were from the diplomacy screen, and whenever the AI agreed to a deal I felt like I was probably getting ripped off.

I started doing something new on every trade I do. After getting the green text indicating the AI would accept the trade, I go over to the money section and ask for some credits as well, moving it up until the text goes red, then bumping it down into green. This way I know I'm getting the very most out of the AI civilization that I can for what I'm giving them, and it helps my bank account too. If the AI has a lot of cash, sometimes they will give you an unusually large amount for a tech, far more than it's worth. I've had AIs give me 500 BC for an early tech like "Beam Weapon Theory" that they could have researched in one turn.

Another thing I've started doing when making trades is offer the most valuable tech I am willing to give up first, and working my way down. Since the AI will pay more if they have more money, you don't want to deplete their account on the cheap techs. This works well in conjunction with the idea of trading away inferior techs to the ones that the AI already has. If I decide I want to trade away Laser III to someone, I will then immediately sell them Laser II, Laser I, Beam Weapon Theory, all the way down until i get to one they already had. This feels like an exploit, though, as the AI really should devalue obsolete techs and they are getting virtually no benefit for having the inferior techs - all they are good for is trade or to make slightly cheaper spaceships (i.e. I only have 1 space left after installing a Laser IV so I install a Laser III instead and save 1BC).

[tetley]

I do somewhat the opposite in some cases. Say I have Sensor IV. The AI doesn't typically research Sensor. What I will do is 4 separate trades: Sensor II, then III, then I, then IV. There's two dynamics going on here: first, if you trade him IV, you're essentially giving him II and III for free. So II and III need to be separate trades for the most bang for your buck. Sensor I, however--you get a +1 Sensor range from it, so the AI values that separately. You could lump in I and II together in the same trade and get more for it than either one by itself, but in my experience you get more if they're separate trades.

By the way, Sensor is an awesome tech to trade. The AI doesn't benefit that much from it. Same with Micro Repair Bots--if nothing else, build the Bots to trade. I traded that to the Drengin for an Attack:Altarians once, and it was a game winner.

[Badtz Maru]

I agree that Sensors are a great thing to trade away to the AI. I find myself "Saving" sensors research for when I need some quick cash, I can then usually research a Sensors tech or two in one turn and get a 1000BC or more by trading it away to all the other civilizations.

I did a large post showing how selling the more valuable techs first would make your more money than selling them last, but when I got to the end of it my math showed that you'd make the same amount of money either way, so I proved myself wrong. That seems counterintuitive, but when I looked at it a different way it made sense, so I guess there's no point in me selling them the highest valued tech first except to get the satisfaction of selling the AI techs it has no need for.

I think one of the first things that needs to be patched is the AI's failure to devalue techs that it doesn't need...an AI shouldn't pay anything for Sensors III if they already have Sensors IV, but they will. I'm going to do some research tonight to see if it's already devaluing it somewhat...I'll research up the Sensors path a ways, then trade all of them to a civilization in order, see how much money I get, then reload from a save and do it the other way, then compare.

Here's another trading trick I do...if I have good Shields technology, I'll trade away decent beam weapon techs to an AI civ I may come into conflict with soon if they are superior to the mass driver and missile weapons they have, with the hopes that they will upgrade their ships with weapons that aren't as effective against my ships. One could also do it the other way around - if all your ships use missiles for offense and you are concerned about an AI that has decent ECM defenses, you could trade them shield or armor techs that are several ranks above their ECM tech.

[Strategist83]

Re: A tip for trading

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Another thing I've started doing when making trades is offer the most valuable tech I am willing to give up first, and working my way down. Since the AI will pay more if they have more money, you don't want to deplete their account on the cheap techs. This works well in conjunction with the idea of trading away inferior techs to the ones that the AI already has. If I decide I want to trade away Laser III to someone, I will then immediately sell them Laser II, Laser I, Beam Weapon Theory, all the way down until i get to one they already had. This feels like an exploit, though, as the AI really should devalue obsolete techs and they are getting virtually no benefit for having the inferior techs - all they are good for is trade or to make slightly cheaper spaceships (i.e. I only have 1 space left after installing a Laser IV so I install a Laser III instead and save 1BC).

Sounds like you skipped your daily ration of bananas. What you're describing is NOT POSSIBLE. The AI will NOT accept previous techs (mass theory) if it already has better techs (miniballs). At least I know it won't accept newer and older techs simultaneously in a trade (it will point out that this would be silly).

Here you go. Now don't skip 'em again!

[Topgun]

Re: Re: A tip for trading

Originally posted by Strategist83

Sounds like you skipped your daily ration of bananas. What you're describing is NOT POSSIBLE. The AI will NOT accept previous techs (mass theory) if it already has better techs (miniballs). At least I know it won't accept newer and older techs simultaneously in a trade (it will point out that this would be silly).

Here you go. Now don't skip 'em again!

You missed the part about those all being separate trades.

[Badtz Maru]

Re: Re: A tip for trading

Originally posted by Strategist83


Sounds like you skipped your daily ration of bananas. What you're describing is NOT POSSIBLE. The AI will NOT accept previous techs (mass theory) if it already has better techs (miniballs). At least I know it won't accept newer and older techs simultaneously in a trade (it will point out that this would be silly).

Here you go. Now don't skip 'em again!

I just tested it, I sold the Yor Warp Drive 2 for a 1060 BC, then in the same diplomacy session sold them Warp Drive for a little over 100BC less. I did verify that they will say something about the deal being shady and it not making sense to trade for Warp Drive when they would already have Warp Drive II if I offered both at once, and they didn't offer me any more than for Warp Drive II alone that way (I raised the BC I wanted for WDII until it was one more than he would pay, then added WD and he still wouldn't accept the deal). I never noticed this before because I always sold my techs separately because I wanted to know what I was getting for each one individually. But when I took WD off the table and sold him just WDII, then offered WD, he wanted it too.

[Gufnork]

Warp Drive gives you +1 speed, so it's valuable even if you have Warp Drive II. You have to make the test with a tech that's worthless to the AI if it has it's successor.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Gufnork
Warp Drive gives you +1 speed, so it's valuable even if you have Warp Drive II. You have to make the test with a tech that's worthless to the AI if it has it's successor.

I've done the same thing with other techs where there is no benefit for the obsolete tech, i.e. weapons. And in the test I did, the Yor refused to pay for Warp Drive if I was also offering Warp Drive II, so it apparently does not see the benefit of Warp Drive. I think the AI just looks to see if the player is offering two techs from the same research line, and doesn't consider the bonuses given by some of the more primitive techs.

[tetley]

I almost never trade Warp Drive I. Why give the AI +1 speed?

[Badtz Maru]

By the time I get Warp Drive, I usually don't care how fast the AI ships are, as I'm no longer in a race with them to get to worlds and resources. I always have better sensor tech than the AI and I usually build interceptors (extra engines, less weapons/defenses) faster than anything the AI fields so it doesn't matter much to me militarily. But in the example above, the only reason I chose Warp Drive was it was the only tech line where I had two consecutive techs that the AI I chose to trade with lacked.

[Brizey]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru


I've done the same thing with other techs where there is no benefit for the obsolete tech, i.e. weapons. And in the test I did, the Yor refused to pay for Warp Drive if I was also offering Warp Drive II, so it apparently does not see the benefit of Warp Drive. I think the AI just looks to see if the player is offering two techs from the same research line, and doesn't consider the bonuses given by some of the more primitive techs.

Definitley an exploit since a human player would never do this on purpose.

[Ari]

I'm not sure about this, but can you research a level 4 tech if you've only acquired level 3 of that tech? Or do I have to "fill in" levels 1 and 2 before before I can go on to level 4? Because if that's indeed the case, then it makes perfect sense for the AI to want older techs, since even if they don't *do* anything, they open doors to future research immediately, as opposed to on some future turn.

[Brizey]

The pre-reqs do not require all previous techs.

[tetley]

Check out what happens if you acquire Research Centers without getting Xeno Labs. You can still build Basic Labs!