Review-in-Progress (Open Thread)

[bonscott]

I think criticism is good because perhaps Stardock actually listens and if it can be improved it will.

[Shadowlord]

This doesn't really sound like ICS to me - there are a very limited number of colony sites, which is the opposite situation from ICS, where you can fit a ton of cities into a relatively small space. But then again, I never liked and never used ICS in any Civ game, so I don't exactly have much experience with it. I found it rather distasteful and avoided it.

So there's a positive pressure to expand as quickly as possible. But if I understand right, there's also a negative pressure from expanding to the exclusion of defense. If you expand and someone else builds up transports and warships instead, they can take the planets you just colonized, thus robbing you of not only the planets, but also the production you spent on the colony ships, and the population you shipped off to that planet.

So, do the AI players actually hit you if you expand without defense? And do any of the AI players try to expand without sufficient defense?

Edit: Deleted two paragraphs which I decided weren't needed.

[Solver]

Brad seems to be great as far as listening to fan feedback goes .

[bonscott]

Originally posted by Shadowlord
So, do the AI players actually hit you if you expand without defense? And do any of the AI players try to expand without sufficient defense?

It takes a while since you can't invade a planet without the planetary invasion tech. So you are generaly safe until that tech gets out. But if you are weak you'll get declared on which can hurt your trade and kill your starbases.

[Solver]

Shadowlord:

This isn't exactly ICS, of course, but the idea in GalCiv2 is still that you need to grab as many available planets as you can. SO it becomes sort of like ICS.

The AI won't hit if you expand without defense. Don't forget that weapons take some time to research, they can't attack immediately. And, if you expand a lot, you get more influence and population. AIs seem to think you're more powerful then and be less willing to attack.

And the AI just doesn't expand so madly. On Tough it does a decent job at expansion, but it's still not quite the crazy expand-like-hell that the human can do.

[bonscott]

Originally posted by Solver
And even if not, I think you'll only suffer very few turns, if any of expenses. I'm actually going to go now and get some numbers.

It has taken me many dozens of weeks to get out from under the economy collapse. Now, even a year later I'm around 80% spending and hovering. I concentrated on building stock markets on two worlds converting them to economy planets and that helped a lot. Population is slow to grow at first on newly conquered and settled planets. At least that I have seen.

Perhaps it's just the events that have happened to me in particular both games that did it, not sure.

[bonscott]

Originally posted by Solver
And the AI just doesn't expand so madly. On Tough it does a decent job at expansion, but it's still not quite the crazy expand-like-hell that the human can do.

Wait until you're next door to the Arceans or Altarians.

[Solver]

OK, I went and checked some numbers. I picked the Yor (no Economy bonus, no Pop Growth bonus). With this, new planets (I quickly colonized four) cost me more than provided for a bit, but, it only lasted around 7 turns, and even then, the expense was negligible, I maybe lost 55 credits while waiting for it to become profitable - and then it happened very quickly, and 7 more turns later, the planet would bring in significant amounts of gold.

And that's with the worst case scenario, being the Yor, no abilities/points for Economy or Population Growth. It's thus safe to say that maintenance is absolutely negligible when you found a new planet. Especially when you start with 5000 credits, wow!

[Solver]

Originally posted by bonscott
Wait until you're next door to the Arceans or Altarians.

I actually was next to the Altarians on my Tough game. They did by far the best job of the AIs. So I dealt with them even easier, paradoxally enough. For example, thanks to the Altarian expansion the Thalians were left with two planets only, really unlucky. I took both on the same turn. Then I took over the minor civ near the Altarians. Then my population also exceeded that ofthe Altarians and I was gaining on them.

When the time came for war, I started it by taking another two planets, one them a manufacturing capital over. Here, the problem was that a couple of other AIs were left very weak, so easily taken over by me, which really increased my strength.

[EternalSpark]

Originally posted by Solver
See, Bonscott, maybe you're not getting enough of it all because you're not adjusting the sliders. It bothers me because I know that adjusting them is the right thing to do and I do indeed see, practically, that it gives very good results.

Maintenance costs just don't counter-balance your expansion. As you colonize the planets, they will provide more revenue in taxes than they consume money in maintenance. If you have an Economy or Population Growth race bonus, you'll see the planet becoming a good source of revenue *very* fast. And even if not, I think you'll only suffer very few turns, if any of expenses. I'm actually going to go now and get some numbers.

I'm sorry, but you're flat-out wrong with the "not adjusting the sliders" retort. I adjust my sliders very well, and I've never experienced a planet becoming profitable within the time frame you claim. Especially given that Pop Growth doesn't do anything in the game - your pop grows regardless of Pop Growth settings.

I would ask you for more data concerning your "only unprofitable for 7 turns" numbers. What were your taxes? What buildings did you place down? In which order? Did you rushbuy them? What is the Yor's morale bonus? What was your overall approval rating? Would you do this again, but instead of doing 4, try colonising 10 planets?

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Gufnork
On larger maps I don't recommend buying colony ships, you're generally better of buying a factory, going all out social until you have enough factories to pump out one colony ship each turn. Those who buy colony ships will run out of money pretty soon and be forced to lower production, which will cost you a lot more than the colony ships you bought earned you.

I think this is probably true, e.g., on Large/Huge maps with Common/Abundant habitable planets. Where there are so many planets to colonize that you can't do it all with your starting cash. But most people are going to at least start out with default-like settings, at which the amount of cash you start with is so great that getting your initial production going is not so important.

In other words, the game doesn't really work so well for experienced players on maps less than very large. This is a weakness, compared e.g. to Civ4 which scales very well from Duel to Huge maps. Starting with a large, fixed sum of cash has a very different effect on smaller maps than on big ones.

As someone else mentioned, you can also find cash when exploring, which can make a huge difference. Civ4 starts have some randomness due to huts and other factors, but are considerably more balanced than GC2 starts.

My own personal inclination is to play at a relatively low difficulty level (somewhere around Painful, probably), but to try to make the game harder by playing a few different starts and continuing only the worst ones. But this is an annoying process to go through.

[yin26]

...by the way, Sirian easily deserves the Diamond Citation Award as well, but he's playing it cool, so I'm sending his award by postal mail...

[Gufnork]

As someone else mentioned, you can also find cash when exploring, which can make a huge difference. Civ4 starts have some randomness due to huts and other factors, but are considerably more balanced than GC2 starts.

You can decide how many anomalies you want when setting up the game and I believe you can pick none, so I don't see that as an issue.

In other words, the game doesn't really work so well for experienced players on maps less than very large. This is a weakness, compared e.g. to Civ4 which scales very well from Duel to Huge maps. Starting with a large, fixed sum of cash has a very different effect on smaller maps than on big ones.

The strategy is indeed quite different between galaxy sizes and so is techs, improvements, racial bonuses and alignments. I don't think they've even tried to balance them, they probably didn't see it as important.

[yin26]

O.K. Today was my longest play session yet. I've learned a few things:

1. Modified colony ships make a big difference. Check out this bad boy, which I call the Spider Colony:



This ship is loaded from Turn 1 to have one extra speed. I understand that Brad is allowing the AI to copy this strategy in the next patch. Good thing, because it works! You get to planets a whole lot faster, which makes all the difference. I went from getting 8-10 planets on a huge map (Tough) to 12+, and those extra planets are critical because they also represent planets taken away from a neighbor. So getting just 3 more planets is really like getting the power of 6 in a way. The same idea works very well on constructors and freighters.

2. Indeed, having a large population and large influence (see the Starbase Shuffle in a previous post) can keep the AIs away for a good while, even if you have NO ships other than freighters and constructors. I wonder if the AI is counting them? It shouldn't.

3. Despite the fact that I spent that last two hours plotting out starbase agendas and maximizing trade routes, I found it really fun in a rather mindless sort of way. It was relaxing. Look again back at that Spider Colony ship. It was fun putting that thing together, having control over units in a way I haven't seen since SMAC.

So, at this point, I think GalCiv2 is a game in which the sum of the parts is greater than the whole for me. And if Brad gets the whole together, this will be a game for the ages. As it is now, I'll eventually tire of the mini games if I get to a point where the AI no longer poses any real threat. It poses one now, of course, mainly because I'm still learning the game and, let's face it, because it *will* punish you if you don't do some of the basics, like good early expansion and the rest.

[yin26]

Gufnork: You're in contention for the Diamond Award, too, if you keep hanging in the thread! I have a penchant for helpful critics, and I'd like to believe I've periodically filled that role.

EDIT: By the way, I used your "rush factories and not colony ships" today with GREAT success. Thanks.