Multiplayer isn't always the answer

[RickyDMMontoya]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
The problem is that this is hugely expensive to do. Making the game playable in multiplayer mode (especially if you want online, not just emailing turn files back and forth) costs about as much as developing the whole game in the first place---even leaving aside any "balance" issues. It's not a free lunch. Plus then people complain when it doesn't work smoothly (which it almost surely won't unless you have a Warcraft-sized budget).

Nope, you're wrong.

Originally posted by Draginol
PBEM and the like can be added pretty trivially. Hotseat is pretty easy too.

I would like the game a lot better if it had Hotseat. I'm already bored with playing against the AI.

They don't have to change a a single aspect of the gameplay (except trivially change the voting in the council), just let more than 1 person play. Don't take out the random events, don't take out the interesting features, don't make it boring, just let more than 1 person play.

They seem to be doing a great job with the updates, so hopefully an update including these trivial and easy features will occur soon, or I may have played my last game of Galciv2.

Good game, I'll be waiting for multiplayer.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by RickyDMMontoya

Nope, you're wrong.

With all due respect to Brad, I think he's downplaying the difficulty of multiplayer implementation.

I agree (as I said) that online multiplayer (what almost all MP fans want) is much harder than hotseat. The cost/reward ratio for hotseat is even worse than online, imho, because even though hotseat is much easier, there's also much less demand for it.

[Shadowlord]

Originally posted by Draginol
We'd end up spending most of our post-release time fixing exploits and other such nonsense rather than helping the 99% of pepole who play it single player.

Wouldn't you still have to fix exploits anyways, to prevent people from cheating to boost their score in the online rankings?

And, might it be harder to find the exploits without multiplayer, since people are using the exploits against AIs who won't notice or complain, rather than against humans who would actually notice? (Or are enough of your customers good about posting when they find exploits, so that this isn't a problem?)

[Camber]

Yes! I am *so* glad that someone gets this. I am going out tomorrow and buying this game. This post has sold me.

It is the SP experience that sells the game for me, and usually the things that I really want in a game aren't there for the exact reasons you have specified: streamlining and balance with MP in mind. I hope that this trend continues as other developers see what GalacticCivilizations has done. Someday I hope that I can immerse myself into a universe and do everything from colonize planets, to choosing the design for buildings on the planets, to designing the layout for my cities, to designing a "palace planet" that I consider my own reward for two months of hard gameplay, to taking an array of two or three hundred raw materials and using various recipes to concoct exciting ship components, that I assemble into warships hand designed by myself, the player.

It's this kind of attention to detail (and the ability to automate it if desired) that makes a game so fun that you play it for five years. GC2 sounds like just the answer to my itch for this kind of immersion and detail. Thank you!

[99ranch]

I'm sorry. Unless you are a lobotomized baboon, SP strat games are only fun for about a week (until you figure out how the AI plays or realize how much they are cheating in order to make the game challenging).

I played Gal Civs 1 for about 3 days before I thought, "I wish I could play this against a real person. It might be a fun game that way." I've not bought GC2 for this reason.

I loved Black and White. The game was wonderful to play against friends. The company tried to make the game ridiculously immersive and it worked. The graphics were intense, and the AI was actually pretty good.

Then came BW2. with no multiplayer!!! I didn't buy it. Their expansion's out now and it has no multi. I didn't buy it either.

I just got through playing ES4: Oblivion (a SP RPG [I hacked it, so I again didn't buy a game because it wasn't multiplayer]). It took me 2 weeks to beat the game, and now I'm no longer playing that game either.

Many people have actually left WoW to play Oblivion, but give it a couple of weeks and they'll all be back on the multiplayer game. Single player games have very limited draw in terms of their market life.

This is the crux of my argument: People may flock to the shelves for a really well-hyped SP game, but word of mouth will make a good MP game sell FAR more copies than any SP game can ever hope to sell.

And beyond this, what kind of loser is actually irritated that OTHER people have the option to play a game over LAN?

The SP aspect IS competetive and is very subject to players exploiting the AI to inflate their scores. For the cost of implementing hotseat and LAN play, you could have made it into the top 10 selling games for at least a week. But for now, Gal Civ2 is one in a long line of mediocre games that could have been so much better "if only it had been multiplayer".

[Solver]

Sorry, if you're saying that no SP game can last more than a week or two for you, that speaks about your preferences, and not a general truth.

Hundreds of people play, for example, Civ4 in single-player for months. And not at the highest levels, because the game has enough to challenge them and to keep them interested all the time.

Same stands true for Oblivion. Some people will beat the main quest, poke around a few more quests and consider themselves to be done. Others will keep playing for more time, scoring 200+ hours on the game.

I think you're right about multiplayer games selling more. With some exceptions, multiplayer-oriented games generally sell better, although there are exceptions, such as the Sims, which is SP-only, and after all the best-selling PC game ever.

You may not like SP as much as MP, which is fine, but if you're claiming that SP games have no market, you're demonstrating huge ignorance.

[tetley]

MP is a blast, especially MMORPG. I just don't think it's practical for long Civ-like games such as Galciv. To do that you have to be a full-time professional game-player.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by 99ranch
I'm sorry. Unless you are a lobotomized baboon, SP strat games are only fun for about a week (until you figure out how the AI plays or realize how much they are cheating in order to make the game challenging).

It's not "cheating" when the AI players get economic advantages. It's just a handicap. The same as playing any game against an opponent who isn't as good as you.

For the cost of implementing hotseat and LAN play, you could have made it into the top 10 selling games for at least a week.

Since you're such a marketing expert, I look forward to seeing your own products sell billions of copies. When are they coming out?

[yin26]

MP doesn't fit my current lifestyle with two small kids and all kinds of other things going on. MP best suits the young and the retired (or, for lack of a better word, the "unemployed"). I did go through an MP phase while in Korea when I had little social activity (and no kids) for a few years. It was a blast, don't get me wrong, but my schedule became more demanding.

Thus, there will ALWAYS be a strong marketplace for a solid SP experience, and since SP only games are much, much easier to program (well, in some ways, as in not having to worry about a ton of issues, then again a good SP game has to have stellar AI in order to impress), I think we'll see more and more indie companies come up with games like GalCiv that cater to those whose real lives are as least as interesting as what on-line interaction provides. That is, for me at least, an SP game is a quality --if brief-- exit from my day. MP games BECOME your day. I just simply can't coordinate schedules with friends anymore for computer gaming, nor can I get an uninterrupted hour with any reliability...unless we're talking past 10 p.m., and by then the last thing I want to do is "perform" well for my friend or clan.

Looking forward, I imagine that two things will be true of my retirement: 1) I will have a TON of time to play MP and 2) I will have crappy eyesight, drastically reduced dexterity, and ZERO tolerance for idiots. This leads me to conclude, once again, that my brief foray into MP was a blip on the radar and nothing more. So, upon futher reflection, I think MP is best for the young and the unemployed. Let's leave the retired out of this!

[Solver]

Yes, the beauty of SP is, of course, that you can play at any time convenient to you, for however long you wish, and play in any way you wish, without any obligations. MP is often about coordinating schedules/playing at a certain time, and if so, that becomes similar to work. It's hard for people with a family because the family requires attention, it's hard for students because they may have extra workload, it's hard for people with a social-oriented job because they might be required to do something on a moment's notice, and so on. SP requires no such planning, just play at your own convenience.

[bonscott]

MP is something I am not interested in at all. I don't know too many people that play games and those that do also don't do multiplayer because there just is no time for such things in real life (kids, job, hobbies, etc).

I guess I must be a lobotomized baboon since I played Civ 1 for a few years, then Civ 2 for a few more, then Civ 3 until Civ 4 was released. In between were many good years of SMAC (which I still break out now and then) along with lots of Gal Civ 1, now Gal Civ 2. Oh, at least 120 hours of Morrowind, 80+ so far of Oblivion. Oh, lest I forget dozens of hours on the Baulder's Gate series and the first Dungeon Seige. Oh yea, Sim City from original to 4. I could go on. All SP. Thousands and thousands of hours of fun and entertaining gameplay.

Anytime I've played multiplayer it was fun for a short time but after about 2 weeks I'd get bored of all the kiddies playing and whining and crying that I'd just quit. After about the 3rd wasted MP game I have given up on MP period.

[99ranch]

I think it's funny how you SP fanboys think that if someone is into LAN games, they must have no life, no job, or are some kind of loser.

On the other hand, I think that SP fanboys have some serious problems with competition and pace. But I DON'T assume your lives aren't fulfilling or that you aren't successful outside of gaming.

I'm saying that MP makes a game interesting beyond figuring out the AI's MO. I happen to have a gf (for 5 years now), a masters' degree, and pretty good job. But I must be the exception... Talk about hubris.

How many times can you play Civ4 SP before you have exhausted the fun of it? The answer for me was around 5 times. If your answer is "unlimited", you are easily amused, and I have a classic game for you to play. It's called "Key-Jingler 3: Extreme Jingling".

I do play Civ4 on the weekends with my friends. But aside from trying to learn the game, I found no joy in the SP experience beyond the first few games.


Oblivion may be selling mass copies now, but in a year, it will be as forgotten as morrowind or Vampire: mascarade. Just like Galciv2 is already forgotten. (I saw it for about a week or two in stores. Not even the fry's near me carries it anymore). Perhaps this says something when Age of Empires 2 is still on the shelves.

Some game companies even lie and say that MP will be released in a patch or an expansion so that more people will buy the game.

I'm not saying that there's no market for SP games. I'm only saying that LAN capability (even hotseat) on a turn-based game turns a good game into a great one, and a great game into a classic.

It's just a shame that this game will never show up on the lists of "top 100 games of the decade" or or whatever. It also (I think) hurts the chances of another space colonization and empire game being made in the near future. Other companies toying with the idea of making a game in this genre will think twice because GalCiv2 is the latest example of these types of games and their potential.

I'm sorry, but GalCiv1 kind of sucked. GalCiv2 may be better, but certainly hasn't sold a huge number of copies, and won't motivate other companies to try to emulate this model.

BTW, Star Craft still sells copies in the US. My students play it against each other. Nobody 12 years from now will be playing Galciv2. Period.

[yin26]

How many kids do you have? Do you own a house?

By the way, I loved MP when I could fit it in -- that is, prior to having kids and a house. So chill on the fanbody b.s. Or troll. I kind of like it, really. What I think is funny that you are in a forum for a game DEDICATED to SP, yet you are talking about how MP fulfills your gaming needs. Hmmm.

P.S. The title of the thread postulates why MP isn't "always" the answer. For certain games aimed at certain markets, it isn't. Sorry if you had grand dreams of GalCiv2 MP and now you hurt inside.

EDIT: By the way, I was part of the Mighty Mystics (always hated the name!) Clan back in the AOK days and am still on their Hall of Fame for best rusher. It was a thrill to play on-line with my clan, and, as you said, GOOD players put up a much, much better game than any AI. There were also a TON of idiots, and the ratio to good game v. completely waste of time was pretty horrible. I simply don't have that time to waste any more, and I'd rather have a reliable SP game on my own schedule. And MANY people are in the same boat.

[Solver]

I don't know what you're used to elsewhere, but this is a mature forum here, so you would do better to state your point clearly without calling people fanboys or anything else.

If you got tired of Civ4 SP after 5 times, that's fine. However, you certainly haven't found out the details of how the AI plays, of AI personalities, and don't know in advance how exactly the AI would respond to any situation. But that doesn't even matter. OK. Civ4 SP is just not what you enjoy, and that's fine.

However, you would do well to check some of your facts before you post. Morrowind forgotten? I can direct you to a forum with many people still playing it, creating new mods, playing them, etc. StarCraft (which isn't even 10 years old, let alone 12) still sells. So does Morrowind. Of course, you don't see either on the top-seller list anymore, but they sell.

[yin26]

http://www.mysticteam.com/public/halloffame.asp Scroll down to "Mystic Yin" for some funny stuff. Man, seems like a million years ago. And in life terms, it WAS a million years ago. When you add kids and a house, you look back at merely having a girlfriend and realize how relatively simple life was.

That has nothing to do with being a loser. I just has to do with growing up and taking on more responsibility and/or choosing to focus one's life on MP gaming rather, say, than taking Harley Davidson rides along the coast on weekends. Choice.