Hey Asher!

[DrSpike]

How is it different from Civ? If a unit is "in the city"
But you have to admit, they're famous lead designers who never coded. So your comment about designers coding is crap, like most of everything else you say.

Most of the exchange is just hot air but this is interesting. Is Asher right, or is Dale right?

[Asher]

How is it different from Civ? If a unit is "in the city" it's working a tile in the city screen. If a unit is "fortified on the city" it is NOT in the city on the city screen or working a tile for the city screen. It's exactly the same! The unit is not "in the city" if it's not in the city screen. Or are you too blind to see that?

You're moving the goal posts. When a military unit is fortified on a city in Civ, it is IN THAT CITY AND DEFENDING IT. It is NOT "working on a tile" in the city, but it is certainly in the city defending it! Why do you think when you attack the city, the soldiers defend?

You're now confusing the concept of "being in a city" with "working on a city tile". You assume they are the same thing, which indicates that perhaps the game design is flawed. To most people, "being in a city" means when you have a city, and put a unit in the city tile, they're in the city. It's a reasonable assumption. If the game doesn't work like that, then it's a flawed design as it does not match what should intuitively be true to a reasonable person.

So you don't like my designer picks? One has the largest franchise ever with over 100 million sells, another has designed some of the greatest strategy games ever (Civ2/3 & Col1) and the other three have created the biggest money-maker in gaming history.

So do you define game success by money-making? So you admit the Halo series is many times better than the Civ series?

Also, you're blatantly lying. Civ2 had two names all over it for design: Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds, both of which come from development backgrounds. For Colonization, Jeff Briggs is 1 of 4 people credited with "design" (though it is still Sid Meier's Colonization), and the other 3 guys come from development backgrounds. Civilization III was utter ****. Civilization IV was far better. Guess who its designer was? Oh boy, another developer by the name of Soren Johnson.

But you have to admit, they're famous lead designers who never coded. So your comment about designers coding is crap, like most of everything else you say.

I said good designers, not just designers. An important distinction. My point still stands.

So I "appeal for love and acceptance here" whilst you croon over your 'OT Presidency'

As a counter to the claim by you that I am a "social leper", which if you actually knew what it means would know it makes no sense if such a person wins the site's popularity contests.

HoF badge

It's not my fault other people voted for me back in 2002. I didn't even campaign for that.

Hmm.... whereas I've NOT participated in OT

That's because you're a social leper.
And you know you're not smart enough to keep up with the guys in OT.

And for someone who believes Kenobi is "very sad" you sure do enjoy quoting him in your sig. Or do you secretly love him?

My sig is one of the reasons Ben Kenobi is sad. If you actually read his OT posts, you'd know. This post from you just further demonstrates your lack of intelligence, honestly.

And for the ultimate in egotistical blowharding:

Are you familiar with the concept of tongue-in-cheek?

[Asher]

Reading Asher's posts lately, he's actually getting more low than ever. I didn't think that was possible...

How is any of this "low"?

"low" is Dale, pointing to my tongue-in-cheek sig and play on a famous quote as an example of egomania. Well, maybe not low, but desperate.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Asher]

Most of the exchange is just hot air but this is interesting. Is Asher right, or is Dale right?

Of course I am right. His examples just prove it.

[Asher]

Or as I politely put it on page two of this thread:

since then everything else has been bait cuz it's so easy to get a rise out of you.

Please do not quote AAHZ. It gives him satisfaction.

[DrSpike]

Of course I am right. His examples just prove it.

I don't think so. As much as I deplore the Sims and Spore, if Will Wright is an example of a designer that has never developed then Dale is right, and you have overstated your case on that point. I don't think you can wriggle out of it by saying you meant only good designers, because you will define that as excluding each and every one that could prove you wrong.

God knows the world doesn't need more Will Wrights, and it probably would make more sense to start from a base of knowing the basics, but everyone should choose their own path.

[Dale]

You're moving the goal posts. When a military unit is fortified on a city in Civ, it is IN THAT CITY AND DEFENDING IT. It is NOT "working on a tile" in the city, but it is certainly in the city defending it! Why do you think when you attack the city, the soldiers defend?

You're now confusing the concept of "being in a city" with "working on a city tile". You assume they are the same thing, which indicates that perhaps the game design is flawed. To most people, "being in a city" means when you have a city, and put a unit in the city tile, they're in the city. It's a reasonable assumption. If the game doesn't work like that, then it's a flawed design as it does not match what should intuitively be true to a reasonable person.

From Col's pedia definition of "settlements". You can look it up if you like.

By assigning a colonist to the Soldier, Dragoon or Scout profession (Combat professions), you will send that colonist outside your settlement to defend the colony.

Flawed design or not, it's stated in the documentation of the game that units outside your settlements do not count towards rebel sentiment, and that combat professions are classed as "outside your settlement".

So do you define game success by money-making? So you admit the Halo series is many times better than the Civ series?

It probably is, that is subjective (I haven't played the Halo games so can't comment whether it's good or not). And you mentioned PC game developers, and if I remember correctly wasn't Halo originally designed for the Mac (by John Howard, who is a lead designer but NOT a dev btw), released as the XBox flagship game, and ported to PC two years later? Excludes it from your own argument by your own comment. And I didn't define game success by money-making. But to any good ol' commercial game company interested in profits 100 million sells, and over $10 million in revenue would probably classify them as a successful game.

Also, you're blatantly lying. Civ2 had two names all over it for design: Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds, both of which come from development backgrounds.

You may want to recheck who is credited for game design of Civ2, and "original Civ design". http://www.mobygames.com/game/window...ion-ii/credits

Sid only designed Civ1 and Civ:Rev. He is credited as "original Civ design" in Civ2, 3 & 4.

For Colonization, Jeff Briggs is 1 of 4 people credited with "design" (though it is still Sid Meier's Colonization), and the other 3 guys come from development backgrounds. Civilization III was utter ****. Civilization IV was far better. Guess who its designer was? Oh boy, another developer by the name of Soren Johnson.

So what? You can't back pedal now. You claimed all good PC game designers came from dev backgrounds. I've listed 5 people who don't. Of course, "good PC game designer" is subjective, but I think the designers of the biggest game franchise in history, the biggest revenue maker in history, and the co-designer of the best strat games in history are pretty good examples of designers who you could class as "good PC game designers".

And you know you're not smart enough to keep up with the guys in OT.

I come here to talk about Civ style games (on topic) not off topic. I go somewhere else to discuss other topics.

[FrostyBoy]

I just wanted to say that... coders should not design games, it's one of the reasons most games suck. Unless it's something like Pong or Tetris.

Artists should design them, coders should slave away at the designers whip lashing.

Of course, to design games, one becomes a programmer in the process, or at least learns a fair bit of it. Two good examples I can think of were Ron Gilbert and Al Lowe.

[lord of the mark]

God knows the world doesn't need more Will Wrights,

Sid Meiers has said, I believe, that the original inspiration for Civ came from Simcity. Even discounting The Sims (about which we agree to disagree) and Spore (which I haven't played yet, but have heard much more diverse opinions about from those who have played, and which I still expect will be improved with xpacks) Simcity's impact ALONE is enough to say that more Will Wrights would be a good thing.

BTW since when does OT have a presidency? What the hell is that? Sounds lame to me.

[hexagonian]

Pavlov rings the bell, asher responds...

Why is it online self-importance when someone makes a thread called "Hey Asher!". My whole point is to stop **** like this. Do I need to word it more simply or something?

Ignore it, then. It's not that hard. Learn some self-control. I've seen five-year-old kids with more control. The thing is, usually they do not know any better. (Unless you really are five years old, then apologies...)

Do you think this through at all? What is the point of your posts?

Try reading my posts VERY carefully...and don't let the big words throw you.

Oh what the hell, I'll repost the important part as it relates to the question.

Actually I do tolerate them...I just like pointing them out publicly for what they are.

To be honest, I find them to be hilarious because of their perceived self-importance, especially when they get all bent out of shape over the most trivial issues. So I give them their own medicine.

To spell it out further...trying to create a little more civility. Unfortunately, for people like you who have no self-control and feel that it is their right to personally resort to slander and personal insults for what amounts to a trivial issue, the response to you has to be on your own level.

The funny thing is, if Dale was in the same room as you, I'd guess you would not act as obnoxious if this same exact discussion came up.

[DarkCloud]

What's the problem with Will Wright?

He's one of the most honored, recognized, and best selling game designers of all time?

[Asher]

I don't think so. As much as I deplore the Sims and Spore, if Will Wright is an example of a designer that has never developed then Dale is right, and you have overstated your case on that point. I don't think you can wriggle out of it by saying you meant only good designers, because you will define that as excluding each and every one that could prove you wrong.

I'm not wriggling around anything. I said "good game designers" to begin with. Will Wright is NOT a good game designer. The Sims and Spore prove that -- they are terrible games, if anything they are popular toys.

I don't care if you disagree with my statement, it doesn't make me wrong. My statement from the start was "good game designers", this wasn't an afterthought clarification like you imply. I knew Will Wright did not come from a developer background when I made the claim, and it's the main reason I qualified "GOOD game designers" because I know between Frosty and Dale they could come up with a bunch of **** game designers like Will Wright.

[Asher]

What's the problem with Will Wright?

He's one of the most honored, recognized, and best selling game designers of all time?

To start with, he doesn't make good games. He makes toys that some people call games, but they're not.

The Sims is not a game, and Spore is a weak-ass game.

[Asher]

From Col's pedia definition of "settlements". You can look it up if you like.

By assigning a colonist to the Soldier, Dragoon or Scout profession (Combat professions), you will send that colonist outside your settlement to defend the colony.

Flawed design or not

You ****ing idiot. What we're debating is whether it is flawed design! You then go and ignore that argument and talk about how it is documented in the game -- I UNDERSTAND THIS IS HOW IT IS IMPLEMENTED IN THE GAME AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I DESCRIBE THE DESIGN AS FLAWED.

It probably is, that is subjective (I haven't played the Halo games so can't comment whether it's good or not). And you mentioned PC game developers, and if I remember correctly wasn't Halo originally designed for the Mac (by John Howard, who is a lead designer but NOT a dev btw), released as the XBox flagship game, and ported to PC two years later?

Oh, Jesus Christ, just stop.

Jason Jones -- a developer -- is the man behind Halo. And I don't even know where you are trying to go with this Mac vs PC thing. That's a red herring.

You may want to recheck who is credited for game design of Civ2, and "original Civ design". http://www.mobygames.com/game/window...ion-ii/credits

Sid only designed Civ1 and Civ:Rev. He is credited as "original Civ design" in Civ2, 3 & 4.

Give me a ****ing break. Jeff Briggs' name is added on last to the list, which indicates he did the least. The game has Brian Reynold's name all over it if you care to actually look at the ****ing game sometime. I'm sure Jeff Briggs designed one or two doo-dads in the game, but giving him credit (substantial credit even) as one of your BEST examples shows you weak and fruitless your examples were.

So what? You can't back pedal now. You claimed all good PC game designers came from dev backgrounds. I've listed 5 people who don't.

You did not, and I enumerated why.

I come here to talk about Civ style games (on topic) not off topic. I go somewhere else to discuss other topics.

Then shut the **** up and go back to the Civ forums. Please and thank you.

[Asher]

Pavlov rings the bell, asher responds...

Ignore it, then. It's not that hard. Learn some self-control. I've seen five-year-old kids with more control. The thing is, usually they do not know any better. (Unless you really are five years old, then apologies...)

I have self-control, I just do not always choose to use it. There's no point to self-control here, if anything it's just passive acceptance for rampant stupidity that I'm not going to put up with.

The fact that you like to make everyone like you and swallow your tongue to do it doesn't mean everyone else needs to be as spineless.

Try reading my posts VERY carefully...and don't let the big words throw you.

You flatter yourself. I love how you call for me to be more civil and all you're doing with this series of posts is trying to wind me up and insult me with **** like this. At least be honest with yourself, and us. Don't pretend to be a goody-goody stick-up-the-ass as you insult and wind up others as well.

To spell it out further...trying to create a little more civility.

Newsflash, jackass: not working.

Unfortunately, for people like you who have no self-control and feel that it is their right to personally resort to slander and personal insults for what amounts to a trivial issue

Luckily for me and unfortunately for you, that is a right in your country and mine. For the record, I didn't slander at all. Look up what the word means (ironic considering your bit about "big words" -- looks like you were a bit ambitious there!)

The funny thing is, if Dale was in the same room as you, I'd guess you would not act as obnoxious if this same exact discussion came up.

Trust me, I would not. I try to avoid people like Dale, but if I am forced to be in the same room as them and this kind of discussion ensues, I do not back down or turtle. Normally the other person backs down and life goes on.