Lord of the Rings Online

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
There's non-raid stuff in the WoW endgame though, it just doesn't offer a comparable character improvement/time ratio.

Same with LotrO?

I've done the raiding thing and it was fun but I don't see myself doing it again.

It's about the same -- you can do reputation or PvP stuff and get access to very good gear comparable to that of raiding.

The problem with raiding is it was a ***** to organize, so much wasted time. LOTRO is far easier to 2/3/6-man instances and still get great gear. But you can also get it via reputation gains, or via repeatable quests/books which provide tokens to exchange for excellent stuff.

And the best part is, thanks to the Legendary Weapons system, all of the cool stuff people worked hard for at the cap (lvl 50) isn't wasted now that the cap is going up to 60. They can "distill" the stat bonuses from their epic gear and apply it to their new Legendary Items to customize and improve them.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Asher
stuff

You just don't get it Asher.

The point on numbers is, if LOTRO is such a good game, and it has huge premade market appeal with a huge franchise name, why hasn't it done better in subs?

Its obvious you didn't follow this game much during development. I can't prove the initial design attempts by Turbine because the website they were on are long gone. The LOTRO website is on its fourth or fifth iteration since they started working on this thing 6 or 7 years ago. But hey if you don't want to believe it thats fine, I don't give a rats arse.

Skills have very little to do with LOTRO, its your basic button masher just like EQ or WoW or pick an MMO. Level is everything. You wouldn't even think about trying to take on the Balrog (or whatever your end game beast is) unless you were the top level. No matter what your skill bar is. Because you are just going to mash a bunch of buttons anyway. Its the level that matters. When was the last time you went to Weathertop at level 3?

I never said anything about Turbines financials, nor did I intend to hint that they were doing bad.

Gamers say a lot with there pocketbooks. and that crappy game (as you have insinuated EVE is) has more subscribers and better steady growth than LOTRO. And LOTRO has a huge Market draw that EVE will never have.

Im not saying EVE is better, nor do I want you to assume that Im saying that.

All Im saying is that LOTRO is a big disappointment because with the name brand they should have a lot more subscribers. So why don't they? Because its basically the same as most of the rest of the MMO clones out there.

And when it comes right down to it, why should someone play LOTRO, if all there buddies are playing WoW?

Because there buddies aren't thats why, because despite the Market draw name brand, LOTRO isn't pulling in the numbers it could potentially have based on name recognition.

Waiting for the next frenzied trollish response

[Asher]

Originally posted by conmcb25


You just don't get it Asher.

The point on numbers is, if LOTRO is such a good game, and it has huge premade market appeal with a huge franchise name, why hasn't it done better in subs?

Didn't even read the rest of your post. I'm so bored of it it's not even funny.

If you think quality can only be measured by sales or subscription count, you're completely off your rocker.

Period.

There are far more dynamics in the MMORPG market than you can comprehend. WoW and LOTRO are similar on their face, and WoW is the "it" game everyone is talking about well before LOTRO came out. It's a game "good enough" for most people, so they haven't even tried LOTRO to see if it's a better game. If you ask around, most people who played LOTRO did find it to be the better game and its reviews were all very positive as well too, and it's gotten even better since launch.

WoW is a market juggernaut and similar games to it that are not sufficiently different (eg, Eve -- which is not a crap game, just not my cup of tea -- is sufficiently different) will not get the same subscribers as the "it" game. That's the main factor here.

If you'd like further basic lessons in common sense, feel free to look elsewhere because my tome of knowledge is closed to you. If you don't get it now, you never will. Now I ask you in the kindest way possible to **** off so the people who have something to say can have a real discussion.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher


And the best part is, thanks to the Legendary Weapons system, all of the cool stuff people worked hard for at the cap (lvl 50) isn't wasted now that the cap is going up to 60. They can "distill" the stat bonuses from their epic gear and apply it to their new Legendary Items to customize and improve them.

That is a good idea - it's pretty annoying when gear you played for maybe months to get is obselete within 10 hours play of the expansion.

[conmcb25]

Why do you have to keep repeating the fact that its a good game. I didn't say it was crap. and I never said it was crappy compared to WoW.

All Im saying if its as good as you say it is, then why didn't it cut into that WoW market share more than what it did?

Because despite the Name Brand recognition, its basically the same old game.

Get over yourself already

[Asher]

Originally posted by conmcb25
Why do you have to keep repeating the fact that its a good game. I didn't say it was crap. and I never said it was crappy compared to WoW.

All Im saying if its as good as you say it is, then why didn't it cut into that WoW market share more than what it did?

Because despite the Name Brand recognition, its basically the same old game.

And THAT IS THE POINT I CONTESTED WITH LONG, DETAILED POSTS. IT IS THE POINT YOU ARE IGNORING.

I may be an ass, but you are genuinely rude. I didn't write those posts for fun.

[conmcb25]

No you are being rude, I saw, a lot of trollish posts, and some denial but very little to back it up.

I see some interesting twists to the "themepark genre", which I think we can agree is genre LOTRO fits into.

But thats it.

Tell me why the core game is different, and why I should leave my WoW friends behind?

And don't forget you are talking to someone who followed this game for years, and tried REALLY HARD to like it in Beta, where Ill be the fisrt to admit it was very polished and well done at that point. Much better than any other MMO, I have Beta'ed.

(Note I don't play WoW any longer and never will again, Im just using that for the sake of arguement.)

[Asher]

I've already identified the ways LOTRO is a better game than WoW. Consider reading my posts and actually understanding them.

[snoopy369]

Con, did you read post #31? That pretty much answered that as far as I can tell... unless you define the 'core' gameplay as the default MMORPG gameplay (go fedex for a while, then grind for a while, then PvP or high-level quest grind for a while, or whatnot), which is pretty much the definition of MMORPG (only Guild Wars doesn't do this, really, and it's not a MMORPG for that reason among others).

Asher's saying that the rest of the gameplay - other than the absolute core stuff- is what is interesting and different. And in the scheme of things that's what drives people to a specific MMORPG anyway - the atmosphere, the stuff you do in between quests, the ways you team up with people, the lore/story, and the 'magic' system. Those are all (according to Asher, in post 31) different, and interesting.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Con, did you read post #31? That pretty much answered that as far as I can tell... unless you define the 'core' gameplay as the default MMORPG gameplay (go fedex for a while, then grind for a while, then PvP or high-level quest grind for a while, or whatnot), which is pretty much the definition of MMORPG (only Guild Wars doesn't do this, really, and it's not a MMORPG for that reason among others).

Asher's saying that the rest of the gameplay - other than the absolute core stuff- is what is interesting and different. And in the scheme of things that's what drives people to a specific MMORPG anyway - the atmosphere, the stuff you do in between quests, the ways you team up with people, the lore/story, and the 'magic' system. Those are all (according to Asher, in post 31) different, and interesting.

Yes I did Snoop, and I have already admitted that some of the differences sound interesting, and have all but said its a better game than WoW.

I bolded one of your statements because I take exception to it. The Themepark genre as I call it (and others do as well) is not necessarily what defines an MMORPG. Thats a type of MMORPG but it doesn't define the genre. Although with the huge amount of games that are essentially that, its getting close to that point.

Again using SWG Pre CU (before they tried and failed miserably to make it a WoW clone), and EVE Online, and I believe UO in the day are examples of much more open ended "Sandbox Gameplay".

In a sandbox you can do whatever you want and go wherever you want, whenenever you want. There is no quest arc you have to follow to level. Just train the skills you want to do what you want, when you want to do it and kncok yourself out. There are no Warriors or Archers or other classes that are essentially locked into a style of gameplay, for there entire existance.

Thats the direction Turbine was going with LOTRO, back when it was called Middle Earth Online. And IMHO with Middle Earth as a backdrop you could do one heck of a sandbox game, and Middle Earth geeks the world over would love it, me included.

Instead the WoW gorilla came out. Turbine got pressure from investors after it used investor money to buy its way out from underneath its publisher. At that point, they scrapped all they did IRT the sandbox, and made another typical WoW/ EQ/ pick an MMO game. Because they new that was safe, and it would make $$, if nothing else on the Name Brand alone.

So yep, I agknowledge its better than the usual clone seen out there today. But in the end its another themepark game in a Middle Earth wrapper. The core game play is essentially the same.

Thats really my issue in a nutshell. This game could have been a lot bigger and a lot more interesting than it is, if they would have just been different. And there is a market for that, EVE Online is still going strong and was released at the same time as Star Wars Galaxies which was initially much more popular. I believe SWG had around a half a million subs at its height. Before SOE and Lucas Arts screwed it up by trying to make it a WoW clone.

So thats my issue really, its the same old thing.

Start and AOC, or a Warhammer thread and Ill say the same thing. although I really don't care much about either of those new titles. Not as much as I cared about the Middle Earth one. The one Turbine disappointed me on.

[snoopy369]

Why do they have to be different? Millions of people like the 'themepark' MMORPG. Sure, it would be nice to have some different games, but I think for something like LOTR:O they should create something more like the 'standard', because it's a wide-audience product. You make 'different' - as in, ground-breaking, new designs not released before - in new properties, not in wide-audience products. I entirely agree with this. You might not like it, and that's fine - look for a 'different' MMO, someone will make it someday This game should be the tried+true formula, with enough interesting differences that are true to the root of what LOTR is to be its own game.

But that's just my two cents.

[Asher]

Originally posted by conmcb25


Yes I did Snoop, and I have already admitted that some of the differences sound interesting, and have all but said its a better game than WoW.

I bolded one of your statements because I take exception to it. The Themepark genre as I call it (and others do as well) is not necessarily what defines an MMORPG. Thats a type of MMORPG but it doesn't define the genre. Although with the huge amount of games that are essentially that, its getting close to that point.

Again using SWG Pre CU (before they tried and failed miserably to make it a WoW clone), and EVE Online, and I believe UO in the day are examples of much more open ended "Sandbox Gameplay".

In a sandbox you can do whatever you want and go wherever you want, whenenever you want. There is no quest arc you have to follow to level. Just train the skills you want to do what you want, when you want to do it and kncok yourself out. There are no Warriors or Archers or other classes that are essentially locked into a style of gameplay, for there entire existance.

Thats the direction Turbine was going with LOTRO, back when it was called Middle Earth Online. And IMHO with Middle Earth as a backdrop you could do one heck of a sandbox game, and Middle Earth geeks the world over would love it, me included.

Blah blah blah, you keep saying the same **** that is without substance and already discussed. Further still, now you start adding detail and when you do I can call bull**** on it.

For instance, "Middle Earth Online" is 100% different from LOTRO. Middle Earth Online was under development by Sierra in the late 1990s. LOTRO is by Turbine, a completely different company. For somebody who supposedly followed the project for years before release, that's a major factual error.

What you are suggesting is you take an expensive and popular IP, like Lord of the Rings, and then gamble with fundamentally different gameplay on it just to be different. That's ridiculous, and I'm sure they'd never have gotten any venture money to start the thing.

[Jon Miller]

WOW actually copied LOTRO with the recent expansion adding achievements, which seem very similar to other achievement systems. Like LOTRO's deeds (Except you don't get anything from the WOW ones but maybe a title).

JM

[Jon Miller]

I think that some games definitely take a lot more skill than others. Eve is one of them, I don't think Asher ever really played it at it's best (I Think he mostly did standard PvE missions, which is what I have mostly done as well, but if you know how to set up your ship those are just rinse repeat), but PvP and the market take a lot of skill.

Another one, from what I have seen of it, is Guild Wars.

If you want to get to more standard MMOs, ones that take more skill and have more fun gameplay from my perspective were LOTRO and CoH/CoV.

WOW, EQ2, AO... all are/were really boring for combat. The best part of WOW is tanking, the rest I put up with just to be part of an MMO with friends. (And I play a Druid in WOW so I can mix it up sometimes)

And while I played the first two versions of SWG, it was similar to EVE in that the standard grind process was really boring.

JM
(My guess is that Asher's SO got him to play EVE at gun point as well. I plan on playing it until the server goes down... and EVE is still gaining people.)

[Kinjiru]

What's the total install size - once you are fully patched up?

I use a laptop for gaming so size is important. While my machine was perfectly adept at running AoC, the install took 1/2 my hard drive - too much space. I'd like to play another MMO, if I can find one that isn't such a space hog.