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  • #31
    Originally posted by DrSpike
    I'd like to turn it around - why don't you tell us what you think makes LotRO better than WoW.

    I shall look unfavourably on graphics based arguments. You mentioned better gameplay mechanics - good to hear more about those.
    The regular content updates are the main thing -- they regularly release, for free, new "Books" which are series of epic quests which take you into new zones/dungeons and progress the storyline of the books.

    There's more room for strategy and true team play with the "Fellowship" conjunctions: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mecha...ship_Maneuvers
    These take precise coordination to pull off but the payoff is well worth it when they do.

    The "Deed" system. You have class deeds, racial deeds, and area/zone deed -- these are basically like Accomplishments but with various levels and a reward. For example, some are simple "Kill 300 Hillmen in Angmar" which grants a title of "Hillman-slayer" (you can choose between all the titles you earn to display with your character name), then the next level might be "Kill 600 Hillmen in Angmar (Advanced)" which would give you a Trait (more on this later). Other examples of deeds are "discover all of the ancient tombs in Evendim", "Drink 23 unique spirits" (the booze kind), "Use your Brace for Attack skill 200 times", "Find Bilbo's 8 buttons", etc. This is all independent of the quest systems, it's basically a supplemental quest system for people to earn better traits and titles for their characters.

    The "Trait" system. The closest thing you could compare this to would be the "Talent trees" in WoW, but they're far different. Traits are earned via deed completion, they're things such as "Honesty", "Loyalty", "Valour", "Compassion", "Patience", etc. Each trait has many levels, each level improves on the last. For example, "Honesty" provides some stat bonuses to Fate, bonus to Power (mana), and bonus to armour. "Loyalty" bumps Vitality, bonus to Morale (hp), and bonus to armour. This encourages players to complete deeds to bump up their traits, which then buff their player. Additionally, you're only allowed to equip so many traits at any given time on your character -- you can't use them all. Further still, if you use sets of traits, you get additional skills/bonuses...this ensures that there's specialized players in high levels, there's no generic "Champion" or "Burglar", but many variations of them.

    The PvP system. LOTRO has "Monster Play", which means anyone can man a max-level kickass monster (Troll, Giant, whatever) and fight against LOTRO characters using that. It provides a tremendous difference in gameplay between your usual character, and doing so produces "Infamy" experience and "Destiny points", which can be used to purchase skills and upgrades for your Monster Character, or temporary buffs which are very helpful on your player character. When you play as a Player Character, you get "Renown" experience and basically, this part functions as WoW with ranks and rewards, etc.

    The housing system. All players in LOTRO can own their own house: a standard house, deluxe house, or a Kinship (guild) house. I've got a Standard house of my own in a nice neighborhood with 15 other houses. It's not overly large but there's lots of space to decorate it, The Sims-style (I know you'll love this DrSpike). You can craft furniture if you are a Woodworker, or otherwise buy from vendors or the auction house. You can display trophies on your wall of infamous mobs you've killed (if you looted their corpse and got a trophy object). You can even repaint the inside. This kind of stuff goes a long way to player immersion, even if it doesn't give you stat buffs or whatever. It actually encourages roleplaying, accordingly. My guild also has a massive Kinship house which we hang out in frequently when not questing, which is cool.

    The clothing system. Like housing, it's supplemental to core gameplay. Every player can have 2 extra sets of clothing which are purely for cosmetics use only, they don't do anything but change the appearance of whatever aspects you like. Again, an immersion thing -- I've got a "winter" set of clothes I can switch to with a furry warm coat, boots, etc and another for fishing, where I wear angling gear. Doesn't take up any inventory space to do this. Just a nice touch.

    The music system. Like the above, doesn't directly impact gaming -- but it is damn cool. You can play about a dozen instruments in the game, manually using the keyboard if you wish (which is challenging, but some people are really good), or you can play ".abc" files you've downloaded. Up to six people can even jam together synchronized if they all have the same file. Very good for the immersion/roleplaying factor.


    The general art style. The cartoonyness of WoW grated on me.

    The player base. All of the 12 year olds wanting "phat l00t" are playing World of Warcraft, the LOTRO playerbase is far more mature.

    The storyline. WoW's storyline absolutely sucks compared to the Lord of the Rings, sorry.

    The gameplay mechanics of the classes. For example, the Warden:
    Wardens execute Gambits by coordinating a sequence of gambit icons in a new game UI element called the Gambit display. The Warden has three basic skills that may each add a gambit icon to the display.



    Gambits themselves are organized into three broad categories that correspond back to the three gambit icons. The first icon in each Gambit’s activation sequence indicates that Gambit’s category. Wardens initially start with only two boxes in the Gambit display but as the Warden levels, a third, fourth, and fifth box are added. This progression allows more complex and powerful Gambits to be performed as the player masters previous skills and advances.



    Spear gambits have a red Spear icon first in their sequences. These gambits all deal with physical attacks and are similar to the attack skills of other melee classes. Shield gambits use the green shield icon first in their sequences. These gambits add short term defensive buffs to the Warden and add heal over time effects. Fist gambits start with the yellow Fist icon. All of these gambits have additional threat while some of them also deal out damage-over-time effects.


    Did I mention the fact that I don't pay monthly?
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • #32
      That's pretty convincing. It's nice to see a substantive post in place of your usual aggression.

      Of course personally speaking I quite like WoW and should I get the MMO urge again the WoW x-pack will probably be my first choice.

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      • #33
        WoW is decent, and I have a sister + friends playing it.

        If I were to play one by myself, it would be LOTRO.

        JM
        Jon Miller-
        I AM.CANADIAN
        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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        • #34
          graphics actually looks better than aoc. in a clean aesthetic way, not im gonna melt ur graphics card way.

          still, id rather play wow just cause

          -everyone else plays wow
          -I vowed to never start playing another MMO
          -LOTR sotry and all really isnt for me
          :-p

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DrSpike
            That's pretty convincing. It's nice to see a substantive post in place of your usual aggression.

            Of course personally speaking I quite like WoW and should I get the MMO urge again the WoW x-pack will probably be my first choice.
            I didn't even mention the legendary items, which look really, really cool.

            But I mentioned that above.
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

            Comment


            • #36
              I stillplay lotro (gladden server) and I think it's graphically phenomenal, especially the water.

              It is similar to wow in structure, but the crafting is more fulfilling (useful) and the expansion looks to add some unique things.

              If you aren't a hard core raider then lotro is better than wow pve wise. The epic book line nails that coffin shut. Hardcore raider? yeah, look elsewhere, but for non-raiders, lotro is much richer in terms of pve to me.

              I like it.
              While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.

              Comment


              • #37
                Nice post too Asher outlining the game a bit. I think alot of people (not those here who tried it, not talking to you guys), hear people say it's a wow clone or see a screenshot and a similar UI and think that it is a wow clone.

                Thats unfortunate, because I find it much deeper than wow in almost every way (except raiding which I don't do anyway). But, because of the above, alot of players don't bother with it.

                The legendary weapon system in the expansion should be very interesting.
                While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Asher

                  Curious though, what are the latest LOTRO subscription numbers, since you apparently have them?


                  That probably one of the better sources you will get out there concerning subscription numbers. Although many companies such as SOE keep those numbers secret, there are ways to find out approximately what they are. And the guy who does this research explains that at his site.

                  I wish I could get the quote right now so it would be exact but the site I made it at has long since died, as well as the interest from the group of folks I knew who were watching the ups and downs of the development cycle of this game for years.

                  After Beta I essentially said something to the effect that initial subs would top out close to half a million based on the Tolkien Franchise. Then they would rapidly drop to the 200,000 to maybe 250,000 range.

                  I could be a bit off in my estimated numbers because that was what two years ago?

                  Anyway it seems LOTRO hasn't even done that well topping out at around 200K, and down to 150K. Assuming this guys research is close. So I considerably underestimated at the draw of LOTR in having people flock to another rehashed EQ or WoW or whatever.

                  And I take exception to calling me nothing but a troll, I made some very non trollish observations and you didn't agree so of course you come back with trolls because thats what you usually do vice countering arguements

                  Im not saying LOTRO is a bad game. Im saying LOTRO is a big disappointment. It had one of the biggest market names out there, second only maybe to the Star Wars Franchise, and all they can manage right now is 150,000 subscriptions, and they have lost 50,000 subs.

                  And initially Turbine was talking about a unique skills based game system, but in the end it was scrapped, and they went with the typical "themepark game". They went for the "Brass WoW Ring", and got an under average MMO market wise because of it.

                  Is it a good themepark game? Sure. But so much more could have been done with this franchise IMHO.
                  *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Not sure if you have problems reading graphs or if you're trying to spin it a certain way, but those figures are ten months old and they don't give a source -- given that only Turbine knows how many subscribes they have and given that they haven't announced anything I'm finding the figures curious.

                    I pre-ordered the expansion last week from their website and it took me three days for the order to go through due to the volume of people hitting the site.

                    I don't know why this matters anyway. Asheron's Call (1) has even less subscribers and they're still doing monthly updates 9 years into it. Turbine is into these games for the long haul, and it's a great game. The subscriber numbers are meaningless to players like myself. I don't give a ****.

                    Is it a good themepark game? Sure. But so much more could have been done with this franchise IMHO.
                    I'm really tired of your constant rhetoric. Say something of substance -- what should they have done better?

                    Make it more raid-happy like World of Warcraft? No thanks, I'm not a big raid fan.
                    Make it more cartoony like World of Warcraft? No thanks.

                    The problem is as Jon Miller mentioned -- it may be a better game, but people play where their friends are. For most people, most of their friends play WoW so they play it with them. In my case, my close group of friends all got into the LOTRO betas and liked it a lot better, and we all cancelled our WoW and have been in LOTRO ever since.

                    It's all about the people. WoW's size is its asset, I think any game right now aiming for WoW's marketshare is going to be in for a world of hurt.

                    Has it ever occurred to you that some people like playing good games because they're fun? The biggest sign that subscriber-base is a bad metric: Final Fantasy XI has more subscribers than LOTRO, and that is a ****ing epicly terrible game. I played it at gunpoint from the SO for 3 months before he conceded it was just terrible. The Lineage games are also awful, even EQ2 is brutally bad.

                    And initially Turbine was talking about a unique skills based game system
                    More rhetoric. It is a skills-based game, it's a frickin MMORPG. Cite this and elaborate if you're going to make driveby claims.
                    Last edited by Asher; October 21, 2008, 10:09.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Its not a skills based game, its a level game.

                      Skills based sandbox = SWG Pre CU/ eve online.

                      Themepark level games = WoW/ Eq/ Lotro/ Pick about just any other MMO out there.

                      If you know anything about MMO's which I assumed you did because you said you played a lot of them, you would know what I am talking about. My apologises for making that silly assumption.

                      Lets for the sake of arguement say his numbers are wrong, and the real subscription numbers for LOTRO are 500,000. Thats three times his estimate.

                      And lets say the subscription numbers for WoW are wrong, lets say they are 3,000,000. Thats about three times LESS then what this guy said.

                      Based on the Franchise appeal, LOTRO is still a disappointment even after I have skewed the numbers.

                      Ya so maybe the numbers are off, I already stated some of his numbers are estimates, and I already said that if you assume he is close to correct. If you don't want to do that fine. If I was dumb enough to pay 200 bucks for a lifetime subscription to this game, I would probably be trying to rationalize as well.

                      The LOTR franchise SHOULD be pulling in big numbers. Not just based on the books but also the movies which were a huge hit.

                      How do you know that Turbines initial design on this game was rhetoric? Did you follow this game for years before it came out? Because if you did you would know that. It was on there forums and website. That was before the redesign.

                      But again, Im not saying its a bad game for a typical themepark. Its not. Its just a big disappointment.
                      *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The analysis and conclusions section:



                        This guy seems to be honest and upfront about the ballpark nature of these graphs.

                        If you have a better source please feel free to share.
                        *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by conmcb25
                          Its not a skills based game, its a level game.

                          Skills based sandbox = SWG Pre CU/ eve online.

                          Themepark level games = WoW/ Eq/ Lotro/ Pick about just any other MMO out there.

                          If you know anything about MMO's which I assumed you did because you said you played a lot of them, you would know what I am talking about. My apologises for making that silly assumption.
                          I know the differences, it's just incredibly poor terminology. Since skills are vital in all of the games, it's not a good phrase.

                          When you say like SWG Pre-CU or Eve Online, I know what you mean. Having played Eve Online, I'm very glad they didn't make LOTRO like that.

                          Lets for the sake of arguement say his numbers are wrong, and the real subscription numbers for LOTRO are 500,000. Thats three times his estimate.

                          And lets say the subscription numbers for WoW are wrong, lets say they are 3,000,000. Thats about three times LESS then what this guy said.

                          Based on the Franchise appeal, LOTRO is still a disappointment even after I have skewed the numbers.
                          This is infuriatingly retarded. I don't give a **** how many subscribers it has. They're still putting out more content faster than WoW is with a fraction of the sales. I'm not saying it'll ever be more popular or even remotely as popular as World of Warcraft. I thought I've made it clear that I don't give a **** how popular it is.

                          I'm just saying it's a better game than WoW. Whether the masses are buying Wiis and playing WoW is unimportant to me. Some people have no taste.

                          How do you know that Turbines initial design on this game was rhetoric?
                          Do you know what rhetoric is? It was rhetoric because you said it and you didn't support it and it's not common knowledge. I've asked you to support it and you still haven't, you're now *****ing about subscriber numbers even though I've made it clear I don't care at all about them.

                          This guy seems to be honest and upfront about the ballpark nature of these graphs.

                          If you have a better source please feel free to share.
                          Holy hell. Let's recap: I don't give a **** about subscriber numbers. That said, Turbine has never released subscriber counts so any numbers will be ballpark figures.

                          If you're trying to hint that Turbine's financials aren't sound due to not having 10 million subscribers, I disagree. They actually just opened up a west-coast development studio to supplement the current developer studio.
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            If the endgame for LotRO isn't raiding, what happens? Is it mainly PvP or smaller non-raid group instances, very high level cap, or something else entirely?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DrSpike
                              If the endgame for LotRO isn't raiding, what happens? Is it mainly PvP or smaller non-raid group instances, very high level cap, or something else entirely?
                              There are raiding instances that are repeatable, it's just not the only real option like it is for WoW.

                              There's lots of small group (2-3 man) or fellowship (6 man) instances which are repeatable. You can also re-play any of the previous "Books" and their instances to collect "tokens" which are used to purchase rare recipes, items, etc.

                              You can also try to complete all of the deeds, which takes a while, to get the maximum trait values to improve your character.

                              You can also do lots of reputation-granting repeatable quests or even farming for reputation items to improve your reputation with the different factions. Improved standing grants you access to rare recipes, items, and areas/zones.

                              What's also common is players just play alts also and get them up to the cap. The gameplay is sufficiently different for each class that it's a different enough experience. All your alts have the same access to your personal Home by the way.

                              Like WoW, there's PvP as well (technically PvMP, player vs monster player)
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                There's non-raid stuff in the WoW endgame though, it just doesn't offer a comparable character improvement/time ratio.

                                Same with LotrO?

                                I've done the raiding thing and it was fun but I don't see myself doing it again.

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