Society VIII: Quest for Perfection

[DarkCloud]

Hello, I think we're aiming for a Sept 15-20th start date for Society 8. If you're interested, we'll add you to the player's list:

1.) Theben
2.) Spaced Cowboy
3.) MJW
4.) Whoha
5.)
6.)
7.)
8.)

---
Right now we're still hammering out some rules revisions- we hope to have everything cleaned up by the 10th

Thanks for your interest!

~DC.

[DarkCloud]

Society Rules

Basics
Gameplay takes place on a square grid map, on which cities are built. Each society lives on the following resources:

Gold comes from cities and is used to build weapons, research technology, expand you empire, and just about everything else.
Technology increases your tax revenue as well as your army's effectiveness.
Armies capture enemy cities, and inflict damage on enemy invaders.

Setup
In the beginning, the world was created...
Players sign up in the thread. When signup is closed, the GM generates a square map with an area as close to 12 squares per player as possible.

Settlement
The GM will arrange player starting locations equidistantly but randomly.

Starting Resources
Each player starts with 1 city, 20 gold, and Tech Level 1 (Masonry).

Map Adjacency

* Two squares on the map are adjacent if they have a common edge.
* Catty-corner squares are not adjacent.
* The sides and top and bottom of the map wrap around and people can attack over the edges.

Gameplay
Gameplay is synchronous, with players issuing orders each day. Each player's turn is made up of the following parts:

0. Government/Revolution
1. Espionage
2. Trade
3. Production
4. War
5. Foreign Aid
6. Tax Collection

Expanded Turn Sequence- orders are processed down the turn sequence list, first in, first processed.

0. Government/Revolution: A government can be changed. You must designate which turn segment you would like to "protect" for that turn.
1a. Espionage: New spy is trained.
1b. Espionage: New spy can be used immediately, or stockpiled.
2a. Trade: Money in Treasury can be used for trade. Cost is based on the tech levels on the chart, not new research.
2b. Trade: Payout is collected. Bonuses for governments are factored in the payout. This money goes into Treasury and can be budgeted in this very production turn as part of your orders.
3a. Production: Scientific Research
3b. Production: Military (armies, nukes, SDI)
3c. Production: Cities
3d. Production: Wonders and Spaceships
3e. Conquered cities rehabilitated free of charge.
4. War: Wars are fought based on the sequence orders are recieved by the GM.
5. Foreign Aid: You can give away anything, but not cities. There's too much potential for abuse there.
6a. Tax Collection: City Income + Wonder Income (From Specific Wonders such as the Tower of Babel). Government bonuses are applied at time of tax collection.
* A Republic generates 10 gold * cities * tech, for example.

0.) Governments/Revolution
* You start in Despotism.
* Change governments by Revolution.
* You will forfeit your entire turn when you have a Revolution except for one phase of your choice which must be stated in your orders for revolution.
* Revolutions complete at the beginning of the next turn. At the beginning of Phase 0, a revolution from the past turn will have completed.

* NOTE: In a Revolution unless you use your free action to harvest taxes from all your citizens, you only collect half taxes for that entire turn.

Phases that can be saved
1. Espionage
2. Trade
3a. Production: Scientific Research
3b. Production: Military (armies, nukes, SDI)
3c. Production: Cities
3d. Production: Wonders and Spaceships
3e. Conquered cities rehabilitated free of charge.
4. War
5. Foreign Aid
6. Tax Collection (Otherwise it is 1/2 taxes)

code:


Revolution- 1/2 tax, 1/2 trade (full if calculated saved phase.) OR NOT USED 0 trade (unless that phase is saved, in which case trade is calculated as despotism), (full wonder income/turn)

Army support cost = 0

Despotism- Free army support.  (full wonder income/turn)

You can only collect taxes from a maximum of 6 cities in a Despotism.

Monarchy- +50% tax, trade, (full wonder income/turn)

You can only collect taxes from a maximum of 12 cities in a Monarchy.

Army support cost = army size / cities 

Republic- Double tax, trade, (full wonder income/turn)

Army support cost = army size

(Clarification: Republic (or Monarchy) trade: A Republic gets the bonuses both when sending and recieving. The trading partner gets a bonus congruent to its own government; a Despotism recieving trade from a Republic still gets base value.)

1. Espionage

* Once you discover Espionage (Tech Level 7) you gain one Spy every turn at the beginning of your Espionage turn. Spies are free and can be stockpiled up to a maximum of 5.

1a.) Offensive Spies
* You may send this Spy at any other player and target any one of the other player's actions, except for Tax Collection and Espionage. (With Trojan Horse You can target the Espionage phase.) That player's specific action is negated for the turn.

* A spy can also steal a technology from another player. This is counted as being part of the Research phase for purposes of deterrance.

* Spies can target a Society in a revolution. However, if the spy is sent to a non-producing phase then the spy is lost.

* It will not be revealed where spies are from, unless they are captured by defense.

* A Spied nation can treat as a Declaration of War, and attack all enemy's cities next turn.

A Spy's actions.
0. Government (A spy may not target)
1. Espionage: (A spy may not target unless his/her society possesses the Trojan Horse.)
2. Trade:
3a. Production: Scientific Research
3a2. Steal a Technology (Counted as part of 3a for purposes of deterrence, but is a separate action)
3b. Production: Military (armies, nukes, SDI)
3c. Production: Cities
3d. Production: Wonders and Spaceships
3e. Conquered cities rehabilitated free of charge.
4. War: Wars are fought based on the sequence orders are recieved by the GM.
5. Foreign Aid: You can give away anything, but not cities. There's too much potential for abuse there.
6a. Tax Collection: Taxation is inevitable. It is immune to Espionage

1b.) Defensive Spies
* You may use a Spy to defend any phase (or part of a Production phase) against all enemy spy action. Afterwards your Spy is retired, whether or not it actually comes into play.

* A spy sent to defend will stop a maximum of two spies trying to sabotage that function.

* Additional spies may be set to defend a function.

2. Trade

Recipient - Society receiving the trade.
Trader - Society initiating the trading.

Cost = Sum of tech levels between you and trading partner. (Also Balance)
Payout= Product of tech levels.
Net Gains= the Difference between (Payout-Cost)
Balance - The Cost.

Distance: You can trade with any society as many spaces away as your Tech Level.
* For example, at Tech 1, you can only trade with adjacent neighbors. At Tech 2, there can be one square separation.
* Note: It is impossible to profit from trade until Tech Level 3 is reached.

Trader: Receives Net Gains of trade immediately. That gold can be budgeted into the Production Phase.

Recipient: Receives Balance/Cost during Tax Phase (6.) This makes this portion of trade immune to espionage. However, it is still subject to 1/2 income during a revolt.
* Exception: If Trader has Silk Road; then trader gets (payout) and recipient gets 1/2 of the trader's (payout).

Limitations: You may only trade with countries whom you are not currently at war.

* Peace may be declared by both players. This allows a return to trading on the same turn peace is declared.

* A declaration of peace by one side results in remaining at war and no trade with the other empire is possible.

* You cannot send additional caravans with gold made from caravans just sent the same turn.

* Maximum caravans per turn = your tech level or 15,
whichever is less.

Recommendations: When formulating orders, please realize that your trading may be interdicted by spies. So please list what expenditure to cut in that event, or else the GM will take stuff off the back of your list.

3.) Production
Gold can also be spent on building cities, researching technology, armies, building Wonders, nukes, SDI defense satellites, and spaceship parts.

3A.) Technology
Buy Technology with Gold. You must buy them in sequence, but you can buy more than one if you can afford it.

The more people who have a tech, the cheaper it is to research it.
Cost = Base Price * (P - R )/ P
P = Total number of players
R= Number of players who have discovered that particular technology.

code:


Tech     Name                   Cost   Allows

----------------------------------------------------------------

 1   Masonry                    auto Colosseum

 2   Iron Working                  4   Tower of Babel 

 3   Monarchy                      8   Trojan Horse, Monarchy

 4   Architecture                 12   Silk Road 

 5   Geography                    20   Acropolis

 6   Religion                     32   Jihad

 7   Espionage                    52   Mafia, Spies

 8   Industrialization            84   Trans Siberian RR

 9   Representative Government   136   National Rifle Association, Republic

 10  Mass Education              220   Univ. of California

 11  Nuclear Fission             356   NASCAR, Nukes

 12  Miniaturization             576   KGB

 13  Space Flight                932   Majestic-12, SDI

 14  The Laser                  1508   Galactic Overlord

 15  Fusion Power               2440   Spaceship Parts

 16  The Flux Capacitor         3948   O-rings (Not A Wonder)

 17  Inductive Pulse Field      6388   Pulse-Field Generator (Not A Wonder)

 18  Nano Diodes               10336   Nano Mfg. Corp. (Not A Wonder)

 19  Subline Warp Fields       16724   Warp Generator (Not A Wonder)

 20  Tunneling Gamma Quarks    27060   The Gamma Machine (Not A Wonder)

 21  Artificial Intelligence   43784   The Universal Intelligence (Not A Wonder)

 22  Impossible Structures     70844   The Superstring Elevator (Not A Wonder)

3B.) Military

3Ba.) Armies
* Buy armies with Gold.
* The cost per army is your Tech Level.
Note: Armies are produced after tech research, thus they will cost an amount equal to your NEW tech level.

* When you advance in technology, existing armies are automatically upgraded free of charge.

Despotism- Free army support.
Monarchy- Army support cost = army size / cities
Republic- Army support cost = army size

* Army support will be deducted from Taxation at the end of the turn, if this results in a negative, armies will be disbanded until Tax Income - Army Support = 0

3Bb.) Nukes:
Cost = 500, destroys 1 enemy city starting with non-wonder cities, wonder cities cannot be nuked until all other cities have been captured/destroyed. Nuked spaces cannot be reused.

3Bc.) SDI:

Cost = 600, each will stop 1 nuke from hitting you per turn.

3C.) Cities
For Taxes, your Base Income = Cities x Technology Level x 5

* Build additional cities in the same way the first is built, with one exception. New cities must be adjacent to an existing one.
* If you don't give coordinates, the GM will build cities in a way to minimize your borders.

* The cost of building a new city is equal to 3x the number it will be

code:


City  Cost

----------

 1     free

 2     6

 3     9

 4     12

 5     15

 6     18

 7     21

 etc.

3D.) Spaceship Parts:

Cost = 1000 each. You can only build one per turn, and need 4 to win. You can overpay on the 4th part, whoever spends the most wins a tie.

3E.) Wonders of the World

* There are 14, one for each tech level.
* Wonders for levels after 14 can be used to destroy other players' space shuttle parts, but do not count toward a Wonder victory.

* Only one Wonder may be built in each city. The base cost of each wonder is the square of its tech level. You may, however, overspend.
* In the case more than one player gives orders to build the same Wonder, the one who spends the most gets it. In ties, first to send orders wins.
* Loser recovers only 1/2 their gold spent on said wonder.

* Wonders are captured when a player is eliminated. Allies must agree who gets it.

The Wonders
1. Colosseum- makes you immune to enemy attack and espionage. Expires when anyone reaches Industrialization (#8). Clarification: If you attack someone, they get a counterattack, and are thereafter considered at war with your Society.

2. Tower of Babel- Generates gold per turn equal to the square of your tech level.

3. Trojan Horse- you get a spy every turn before Espionage (#7), and Sabotauge of the Espionage Phase is allowed afterwards.

4. Silk Road- Your caravans are free. Additionally, every turn you receive 10% of worldwide trade. (Worldwide trade being defined as the gross income of the senders; not the combined net income of senders/recipients) (see Trade) for more info on Silk road. Expires with Mass Education (#10)

5. Acropolis- you have the option to change to Republic even without the technology. You still need a Revolution.

6. Jihad - Allows the Society to attack all cities without a war declaration (unlike a sneak attack which only allows the attack of adjecent cities). (Jihad and NRA cancel each other)

7. Mafia- All Cities can be taxed even if your nation is a Despotism or a Monarchy. The following is NOT IN THIS VERSION;FOR LATER---->If you are a republic, captured cities are rehabilitated for free.

8. Trans-Siberian Railroad- Your new cities may be built anywhere.

9. National Rifle Association (NRA)- The First turn of a declared war is treated like a sneak attack. Only border cities may be taken. (Jihad and NRA cancel each other)

10. University of California- Allows you to build anything that you have not yet discovered the technology for, providing that someone else has (spaceship parts, wonders, nukes, SDI).

11. NASCAR- You can only trade with yourself. Your Caravans are Free. (You do not get double trade).

12. KGB- When built, allows you to designate any other wonder obsolete. After use the wonder is obsolete.

13. Majestic-12 Program- your nuclear missiles can only be taken down by a grid of at least 3 SDIs.

14. Galactic Overlord- SDI satellites of all nations are used to defend your nation.

3F.) Rehabilitating Cities

* Usually conquered cities do not contribute to taxes for that turn.
* Wonder benefits cannot be applied until a city is rehabilitated.

* If you have a specific wonder, these cities can be rehabilitated in the same turn they are captured.
* A spy can rehabilitate cities as one of his actions.

4.) War

* When you advance in technology, existing armies are automatically upgraded free of charge.
* You can fight one war per turn with an adjacent society.
* Armies sent to attack do not defend.
* Specify target and number of armies to commit.
* If an army is unable to fight a war due to someone else beating them to the target, it will stay home and defend.

4A.) Waging War
* The person initiating the war can decide whether to use armies or nukes first.

4Aa.) Declaring War
* Normal diplomatic procedure is to declare war one turn before attack.

4Ab.) Sneak Attack
* You may carry out sneak attacks, but under such cases you are limited to capturing cities directly adjacent to your territory (Unless you have the JIHAD Wonder.

4Ac.) Nuclear War
* All Nuclear Wars can be sneak attacks, but remember, cities that are nuked are destroyed, never taken. (See 4E for more information.)

4Ad.) Captured Spy
* If a nation nominally at peace with you sent a spy against your Society and s/he was captured. You have an automatic Declaration of War on your new enemy next turn.

4B.) When Attacking
* Rank the enemy cities in preference of which ones you'd like to capture.
* Each city must be adjacent to your territory or to a city further up the list. If you don't, the GM will take cities in a way to minimize your borders.

4C.) Capturing Cities

4Ca.) One-Way Attack (City Assault)
* The attacker is the only one who can capture cities.

* Factors include army size vs. defender technology, number of defenders per enemy city, and the ratio between attacker and defender's technology.

C = ((A / DT) - (D / DC)) * (AT / DT), round down.

C= cities captured

A = attacker's army size

D = defender's army size

AT = attacker's tech level

DT = defender's tech level

DC = defender's number of cities


* Captured cities do not generate income on the turn they are captured.

4CaI.) One-Way Casualties
See 4D.

4Cb.) Two-way attacks (Field Battle)
* When two nations attack each other on the same turn, the armies first fight each other.

A1 * A1T vs. A2 *A2T

A1 = attacker 1's army size

A2 = attacker 2's army size

A1T = attacker 1's tech level

A2T = attacker 2's tech level


4CbI.) Two-Way (Field Battle) Casualties
* The loser's entire attacking army is destroyed.

* The winning attacking army's surviving members are calculated as:

Survivors = (A1*AT1- A2*AT2)/(A1)

The casualties are:

Beginning Armies (-) Survivors = Casualties

4CbII.) Two-Way City Capturing
* After fighting in the field of battle, the survivors of the Winner of the Two-Way attack then assault the cities as in 4Ca, and take a number of cities based on that formula.

4D.) Taking casualties

Attacker takes casualties as follows:
Casualties = D / AT.

Defender takes casualties as follows:
Casualties = (D / DC) * cities lost.

4E.) Nuclear War
4Ea.) Launching Nukes
* A Nuclear Volley can be launched at any nation regardless of state of war.
* However, any stockpiled nukes in that nation will be immediately used as a response volley.

4Eb.) State of Nuclear War
Once a nation launches a Nuclear Volley, they are considered to be at war with the nation they attacked for the duration of the game.

4Ec.) Attacking Across Nuked Spaces
* Attacking across nuked territory is allowed, but if your tech is less than 15, you lose half your armies from the radiation. If it is 15 or greater, but still less than 20, then you lose 25% of your armies. If 20 or greater, you lose no armies.

5.) Foreign Aid

Once per turn you may grant any or all the following to any one other nation; as per the rules on Trade distances.

1. Spies
2. Technology (When gifting technology, you may only gift a max of ONE technology per turn.)
3. Military: (Army, Nukes, SDI) (You MUST BE ADJACENT To provide this sort of aid. Also, a Society may send no more than 1/2 of its total Armies, or Nukes, or SDI in Foreign Aid.)
4. Gold
NOTE: Wonders, cities and spaceship parts are not grantable.

6.) Taxes

6A.) Tax Collection
* Restock your treasury for the next turn as follows:

Income = Cities x Tech Level x 5

(+50% for Monarchy, double for Republic, 1/2 for Revolution.)
Round Up.

* Cities captured on the current turn do not generate tax income until the following turn

Army Support
In this phase Army Support is deducted from total tax revenue. (See Army)

Recieving Trade
In this phase, Trade is received. Benefits of trade are as detailed in Phase 2.

=====

Victory
Conquest- self explanatory

Spaceship- build spaceship. There are 4 parts, each costing 1000 gold. You can only build 1 per turn. The first to complete a spaceship wins. The fourth part, the Engines, can cost as much as one wants to pay for them. Should two players complete spaceships in one turn, the one with the more expensive engine wins.

Cultural- build and hold 7 wonders, or build/conquer 12 wonders

Domination- achieve an unassailable position of power where GM and other players concede.

Technological- Research 22 Technologies




It is possible for two players to complete different Victory conditions on the same turn, this results in a dual victory.

---
Appendix: Non-Sending Orders and Default Orders
* In the event that the deadline for sending in orders has passed, the GM will "play" the non-sendee's turn. The GM will only defend, only trade with countries that were traded with in previous turns, and only research technology with gold. No other actions will be taken.

* To avoid this circumstance, players are encouraged to send "Default Orders" in the event they will not make their time deadline. Default Orders may consist of the Following.

1.) Build instructions when gone.
(Build Cities with 30% cash, Build Tech with 50% of cash, build armies with 20% cash.) If 20% is not enough to build something, then that percentage will be added COMPLETELY to whatever order is rated the highest.

2.) Trade instructions when gone.
(Trade with X)

3.) Nothing Else. This means no War instructions, no foreign aid instructions.

----
Appendix: Example Orders
- Orders are PM'd to the GM.

Government
No Change

Espionage
Send spy to sabotauge Ljube's army recruitment.

Trade
Send 1 Caravan to Gamecube64
Send 1 Caravan to Smiley
Send 3 Caravans to Jonny
Send 3 Caravans to Whoha

WHOHA (3)(8+8)= 48 cost (8)(8)(3) = 192 gold
JONNY (3)(8+9)= 51 cost (8)(9)(3) = 216 gold
SMILEY (1)(8+8)= 16 cost (8)(8) = 64 gold
GAMECUBE (1)(8+8)= 16 cost (8)(8) =64 gold
Income from Trade- 536 gold

Research
Tech 9- 91 gp
Tech 10- 220 gp
Tech 11- 356 gp

Cities
Build City K 12 (cost 121) = City 11.

Armies
Build 45 armies at tech 11. (Cost 495)

Foreign Aid
send Tech 9 to Whoha

TOTAL UNITS
63.

WAR
Send 50 Soldiers against Ljube.

GOLD
128 GP LEFT
---------------------
Another Model:

NAME
Starting Gold:
2870 Gold

Government
No Change.

Espionage:
Train and Send Spy to MJW to sabotage Army Production.
Trade:
Send 13 Caravans to Theben.
Cost= (13+13)*13= 338
Revenue = (13*13)*13*2= 4394
Net Gain = 4056
Gold after Trade
6926

Production: Research
The Laser 1508
Fusion Power 2440
Gold after Research = 2978

Production: Armies
Train 98 new armies Cost = 98 * 15 = 1470
Gold after Armies = 1508

Production: Spaceship Parts
Build part #1 Cost 1000
Gold after Spaceship Parts = 508

Production: Wonders
Build Galactic Overlord Cost: 508 Gold
Gold after Wonders = 0

Foreign Aid:
Gift Tech 14 to YYYY

War:
Send all armies to XXX on attack, leave none to defend.

Gold at end of Turn = 0.

[DarkCloud]

Notes-
* In building wonders losers only get 1/2 gold back. Thus, it's more cut-throat.
* Capturing cities has been revised.
* SDI cost raised from 500 to 600.
* Note; no one has ever won a technological victory... should that be examined?

All changes suggested in other thread have been made. Rules (hopefully) complete.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Casualties still borked.

Both tech 10s go head to head, one with 100 armies, the other with 99

Defender loses all his armies, the attacker loses 10 armies.

Since all things should be equal seems like Survivors should be (Defender still loses all his armies, winner assume to be A1):

Survivors = A1*AT1- A2*AT2

[Theben]

From other thread:

11. NASCAR- You can only trade with yourself. Your Caravans are Free.

whoever has nascar is punished from trading with anyone else... but their caravans are free and they benefit themselves. I think this is a good enough benefit...

I like it. It actually doesn't penalize the owner much unless another civ has much higher tech.

Also note that when you switched war and foreign aid you didn't fix the references.

I'm going to suggest a change to the new spy rules, perhaps a forced DoW isn't a good idea and should be left up to the player... my initial point was that the DoW would allow the spied player to attack all cities, now not sure if that's important.

Also change the defensive spy to stop 2 spies only if civ is at war (heightened vigilance).

If you decide to allow spy tech, you'll have to be careful how you announce it so as not to tip other players the tech was received thru spying.

You need to note under Mafia that Republic captured cities are rehabbed immediately, not free.

I'm going to withdraw my idea for changes in army support, but I think a note under it encouraging players to save some $$ in case they're in a position to lose cities and their army to support costs would be good.

Lastly we need to come to agreement on 2 way battles.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy
Casualties still borked.

Both tech 10s go head to head, one with 100 armies, the other with 99

Defender loses all his armies, the attacker loses 10 armies.

Since all things should be equal seems like Survivors should be (Defender still loses all his armies, winner assume to be A1):

Survivors = A1*AT1- A2*AT2

That's not too bad.

[Theben]

Actually I think a modified version of that could be used:
Casualties for defender=
Casualties for attacker=
AA=# of attacker armies
DA=# of defender armies

EDITed cuz still FUBARed.

[Theben]

Casualties for defender= (AA*AT)/(DA*DT)*25++
Casualties for attacker= (DA*DT)/(AA*AT)*25++
AA=# of attacker armies
DA=# of defender armies

++--> Random number I pulled from a hat. Higher the number the higher casualties, I wouldn't set over 50.

EX: 100 armies at tech 10 attack the same. Both sides suffer 25 army loss.
120 armies at tech 12 attack 100 armies at tech 10.
Defender suffers (120*12)/(100*10)=1.44x25=36 casualties, while attacker suffers
(100*10)/(120*12)25=~17.5 casualties.

In event both sides attack the attacker is considered the higher total of A*T.

In both cases determine # of cities lost by current formula AFTER casualties taken.

[Theben]

Another possible formula:
Defender losses= (AA/DA)25
Attacker losses=(DA/AA)25

Subtract 10(20)% from casualties for every tech level over opponent.

Add 10(20)% to casualties for every tech level under opponent.

[DarkCloud]

What about instead of what we have:

Attacker takes casualties as follows:
Casualties = D / AT.
Defender takes casualties as follows:
Casualties = (D / DC) * cities lost.

Replace with:
Survivors = (A1*AT1- A2*AT2)/(A1) ---For Two-Way War (A1 being the winner).

And leave Regular wars as before?

[Spaced Cowboy]

The only problem is abstracted.

When you have attacker versus attacker, then both armies meet at the border and fight until only one remains, in this context when the defenders army is eliminated it makes sense.

When you have a defender with his armies spread through his cities, the attacker can't get all his armies to those locations at once, hence he'll still have some survivors in the cities that are left.

So the casualties or survivors of the armies should be different depending on the situation.

Also IMO, if there are no defenders, what is stopping the attacker from taking all the cities?

[DarkCloud]

Also IMO, if there are no defenders, what is stopping the attacker from taking all the cities?

City garrisson of noncombatants- they can inflict casualties.

-
I don't really see the problem? Then again, math is not my forte.

If its ATK v. DEF, the defender doesn't necessarily lose all his troops if he loses the battle.

[Theben]

Personally I like the formulas I came up with. They work well, are somewhat realistic, and should be easy to work into an excel program. They might be a bit of a pain for the GM to work out manually or to re-program, but shouldn't be too hard.

The only difference between the 1st and 2nd is that in the 2nd technology isn't devalued the higher the techs get. The difference between Tech 5 and 6 vs. techs 11 and 12 are present in teh 1st formula; in the 2nd they have the same benefit/penalty.

I don't agree in having a defensive force completely destroyed because of simultaneous attacks. One side being completely wiped out is a rare occurrence. If you notice the *25* corresponds to a percentage... so if you want on average 20% or 30% or 50% casualties that's the only number you need to change.

[Perfection]

HERE I AM! QUEST OVER!

[MJW]

I feel strong enough to do things my way.
I'll join.
If anyone wants to attack anyone one whose cities are in reach of mine -- he can PM me if they want to and I'll attack him to!

:-)