Console Wars V

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Hm, I think the score is Spike 1 Asher 0 right now.

At least.

Originally posted by snoopy369
DrSpike's analysis happens to fit the facts rather better than yours, which fits your personal opinion nicely...

I'd hesitate to call it analysis - I just baulk at the Wii-assassination that sometimes goes on here. I personally don't have a Wii (the 360 is a better fit for many of the reasons Asher outlines) but the sales figures are undeniable. Not only that, they have been sustained since release (not dropping off as a fad would). And that's despite a relatively high current price point (an argument Asher is all too willing to deploy when it suits him) given the recent cuts in 360 and PS3.

So no, I'm not willing to make the jump to assuming that Wii consumers are unhappy and disenchanted, just because many of the games are something I personally would not buy. It just seems more logical to presume that on the whole Wii owners just have different preferences to me (and I presume, to Asher).

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by DrSpike


That doesn't seem the right interpretation unless there is a reason that one months worth of downturn represents a strong trend. And it's from a healthy spike up the month before.

The more balanced take is that the PS3 sales have been consistently on a par with or better than the 360 over 2008 - which is interesting.

Also Asher, I notice you declined to respond to this.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I'd hesitate to call it analysis - I just baulk at the Wii-assassination that sometimes goes on here. I personally don't have a Wii (the 360 is a better fit for many of the reasons Asher outlines) but the sales figures are undeniable. Not only that, they have been sustained since release (not dropping off as a fad would). And that's despite a relatively high current price point (an argument Asher is all too willing to deploy when it suits him) given the recent cuts in 360 and PS3.

So no, I'm not willing to make the jump to assuming that Wii consumers are unhappy and disenchanted, just because many of the games are something I personally would not buy. It just seems more logical to presume that on the whole Wii owners just have different preferences to me (and I presume, to Asher).

I find it hilarious that you don't see the stupidity of using new console sales to make the case that there's no long-term Wii owner disenchantment. Sometimes I forget that I'm dealing with an economist, then you remind me with this drivel.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike


Also Asher, I notice you declined to respond to this.

I've already responded to it in previous posts, because you haven't blessed us with an original argument. The 360 needs a real pricecut, which it still has not gotten. The PS3 has had several real pricecuts as well as an exclusive system-seller that the 360 hasn't yet countered this year.

I'm sorry if I don't respond to every one of your posts, because most of them (like the one you quoted, apparently thinking it was insightful) are ****.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher

I find it hilarious that you don't see the stupidity of using new console sales to make the case that there's no long-term Wii owner disenchantment. Sometimes I forget that I'm dealing with an economist, then you remind me with this drivel.

Well it is odd that the Wii is still flying off the shelves even though the people that bought it are so disenchanted. Yes the sales are of new consoles but one has to believe there are no mechanisms for said owners to reflect their widespread disenchantment. And this in an age where we have more information at our finger-tips than ever before - as well as traditional word of mouth, which no doubt is a source of some Wii sales amongst those who don't follow the scene as a rule.

That level of argument might work in computing (a technical rather than academic subject) but I don't think it will cut the mustard here.

Let's just all admit the truth here: you don't like the Wii, you don't like Wii games, and you really want so hard for everyone else to validate your opinion by hating it too. It's really quite touching, in a way.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Well it is odd that the Wii is still flying off the shelves even though the people that bought it are so disenchanted.

So you think people will buy lots and lots of the same console if they like it?

Solid economic analysis as usual.

I've already discussed the psychology behind it. I didn't say there's no medium for people to express their discontent, and in fact the opposite is true. You've clearly never been to any Wii forum since E3 where there are lots of disgruntled and disenchanted Wii owners. There's lots of people expressing that -- you don't own a Wii and you clearly don't visit a lot of gaming forums. I'm not sure why you think I'm the only Wii owner that's "disenchanted", because there are so many online you'd need to be obliviously stupid to miss it. Additionally, you clearly don't know a whole lot of people with the Wii as the people I know IRL are expressing the same sentiment.

But lo and behold, every other month or so another one of my friends proudly proclaims on his facebook that he's "got a Wii!!!" and then days later he'd be bored of it and said he's waiting for the good games...

There's psychological and sociological factors here that I'm not sure you can comprehend. Then again, you think sales of new consoles indicate long-term ownership satisfaction. You're crazy. No wonder you could never get a science degree.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher

I've already responded to it in previous posts, because you haven't blessed us with an original argument. The 360 needs a real pricecut, which it still has not gotten. The PS3 has had several real pricecuts as well as an exclusive system-seller that the 360 hasn't yet countered this year.

I'm sorry if I don't respond to every one of your posts, because most of them (like the one you quoted, apparently thinking it was insightful) are ****.

That part seems consistent with the facts. But I was responding to this attack on LOTM for "superficial thinking"

Originally posted by Asher
Did you know that PS3 weekly sales actually fell 36% since last month and 360 sales went up 20%? It's amazing that kind of insight I can get from NPD when I actually think and analyze.

You're way too superficial.

And actually of course, from looking at the chart you posted it is your argument that is superficial here.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher

So you think people will buy lots and lots of the same console if they like it?

Solid economic analysis as usual.

Not sure if you are being stupid or disingenuous. Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by DrSpike


Well it is odd that the Wii is still flying off the shelves even though the people that bought it are so disenchanted. Yes the sales are of new consoles but one has to believe there are no mechanisms for said owners to reflect their widespread disenchantment. And this in an age where we have more information at our finger-tips than ever before - as well as traditional word of mouth, which no doubt is a source of some Wii sales amongst those who don't follow the scene as a rule.

That level of argument might work in computing (a technical rather than academic subject) but I don't think it will cut the mustard here.

Let's just all admit the truth here: you don't like the Wii, you don't like Wii games, and you really want so hard for everyone else to validate your opinion by hating it too. It's really quite touching, in a way.

Edit: I see you added a more to your 'insightful' post (my quote covers the whole original post) whilst still of course not quoting the pertinent part of my post, and including your trademark insults.

So I'm going to leave it there because I know you'll never let it drop, and the insults will just get worse as they always do when people outargue you.

I will leave it for others to decide the final score. Goodnight.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
And actually of course, from looking at the chart you posted it is your argument that is superficial here.

It's not superficial, it's the latest trends.

The 360 and PS3 are almost even in 2008, the PS3 has sold a little bit more but in 2007 the 360 sold a lot more. And as any serious industry observer would note, the 360's price is still a lot closer to its launch price than the PS3's and has far more room to cut its price. Additionally, there's the exclusivity situation.

You're confusing a superficial argument with you being too dumb to put together a string of many arguments I've put force over the past months. You need to look at the big picture, so does LOTM. I'm sorry you missed my point, which I admit was a bit cerebral because I didn't hit you over the head with it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Not sure if you are being stupid or disingenuous. Please enlighten us.

I was just showing the blatant stupidity of your comment. The fact that you backtracked on it in the very next sentence is inconsequential. And now just ignored the rest of my post which actually addressed the rest of yours.

Classic DrSpike. Rhetoric and bull****, all the time. Just like my economy courses in university.

Edit: And now you've edited it and acted like I edited my post after you posted, when it was before. Classic.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Asher

What facts do you have for long-term Wii owner purchasing habits?

The "steady" sales of Wii games, mostly outside of the top 10 titles, indicates they're being purchased mostly by new console owners steadily coming to the new party. When new games come out, unless it's a first-class Nintendo title with massive exposure, rarely do they crack the top 10. That indicates people buying new consoles and then an assortment of titles to go with it rather than constantly purchasing of **** games by Wii owners who simply haven't learned their lesson year a year or more after ownership.

I'd like for you to actually bring an argument to this thread rather than rhetoric. Can you step up?

Eh, what? The wii has sold vastly more software than the 360 did at a similar time in its life. And that's just talking North America.

Is everyone just buying a wii with 5 games and calling it a generation?

Even if so, so what? that buying power is buying more games than the extremely frontloaded 360 buyers. And Nintendo sold more revenue wise than the 360 in July, even at a lesser price. How troubling.

[Asher]

Eh, what? The wii has sold vastly more software than the 360 did at a similar time in its life. And that's just talking North America.

Not per console, which is the point in contention if we're discussing long-term user satisfaction.

Even if so, so what? that buying power is buying more games than the extremely frontloaded 360 buyers.

What? "frontloaded"? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

The 360 has sustained itself at its or near its launch price for longer than any console in history and has the highest attach rate in terms of software sales of any console in history and its best selling titles came out in the last year. In what way is this "frontloaded", I can't see how it makes sense in any possible way.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Asher

Eh, what? The wii has sold vastly more software than the 360 did at a similar time in its life. And that's just talking North America.

Not per console, which is the point in contention if we're discussing long-term user satisfaction.

Is that the new benchmark for you? Wii won't sell. gone. Wii is fad. gone. Wii games don't sell. gone. Wii 3rd party games don't sell. gone. Wii sells more because its cheaper. gone in september. Now we're at "long-term user satisfaction"? Can you throw out anything more meaningless and unprovable "metric"? Can the 360 even claim long-term user satisfaction when few pre-mid 2007 units are still functional?

Even if so, so what? that buying power is buying more games than the extremely frontloaded 360 buyers.

What? "frontloaded"? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

The 360 has sustained itself at its or near its launch price for longer than any console in history and has the highest attach rate in terms of software sales of any console in history and its best selling titles came out in the last year. In what way is this "frontloaded", I can't see how it makes sense in any possible way.

of course, "longest to sustain the launch price" is another banner that will fall to the wii. in the near future.

by frontloading, I was referring to your comment about game sales. Frequently 360 games will sell well, hit the top ten, and then vanish forever, compared to wii games which, as you said, have sustained growth, long legs off the chart.

[Asher]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Is that the new benchmark for you? Wii won't sell. gone. Wii is fad. gone. Wii games don't sell. gone. Wii 3rd party games don't sell. gone. Wii sells more because its cheaper. gone in september. Now we're at "long-term user satisfaction"? Can you throw out anything more meaningless and unprovable "metric"?

I'll admit that the Wii sells to a demographic of grandmothers, mental midgets, and toddlers which I am not in. It's thrown me for a loop with its success -- make no mistake, as a traditional game console it sucks. Worse than the Gamecube in many respects.

I did not predict nor do I approve of the Wii's runaway success as a shovelware ****fest device, which is what it is these days with a few exception -- all of which contain the names "Mario" or "Zelda" in their title.

Nevertheless, I think it's quite obvious that the limitations of the Wii's graphics and control scheme, in addition to a monotonous stream of half-assed games, do impede long-term satisfaction of its owners.

of course, "longest to sustain the launch price" is another banner that will fall to the wii. in the near future.

Probably, but even if so that doesn't take away from the 360 which accomplished it in the traditional gaming market.

by frontloading, I was referring to your comment about game sales. Frequently 360 games will sell well, hit the top ten, and then vanish forever, compared to wii games which, as you said, have sustained growth, long legs off the chart.

Yeah, I'm sure Rockstar, Bungie, and Activision are completely devastated with the lack of legs on GTA4, Halo 3, and Call of Duty 4. You can bet your ass they wish they had the legs of Cooking Mama and Carnival Fun Faire.

Look at all of these games without legs:

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Gears%20Of%20War%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Grand%20Theft%20Auto%20IV%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Call%20of%20Duty%204:%20Modern%20Warfare%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Halo%203%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Forza%20Motorsport%202%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Assassins%20Creed%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Guitar%20Hero%20III:%20Legends%20of%20Rock%20-%20X360

http://www.vgchartz.com/swlaunch.php?game1=Elder%20Scrolls%20IV:%20Oblivion%20-%20X360

These are literally all titles I looked at. I didn't omit any. You can't tell me they don't have legs. You're full of it.

[asleepathewheel]

In other news, Too Human is turning out to be quite a piece.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/xbox360/toohuman

I've downloaded the demo, but haven't bothered playing it...