Console Wars: The Clone Wars

[lord of the mark]

Id like to revisit the assertion that Germans buy PS3s out of anti-American feeling.

First I think theres ample evidence that Germans have different tastes in gaming, as witness the popularity of PC gaming. That is not nullified by the most popular PS3 games being the same as in the US. The quesion is if there is a market for the 360 games that are not available on PS3. Or perhaps a greater body of gamers who are ALSO interested in bluray. Or any of the other rationales determining the console buying decision.

Its certainly a fact that historically many Germans have been pro-US, and many Briton anti-US. In fact during much of the cold war Germany was more consistently pro-US than the UK. However its POSSIBLE thats not true of the younger demographic which buys more consoles. Still Id like to see some actual evidence to that effect, either sourced, or poly anecdotes from folks who actually live in europe.

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Id like to revisit the assertion that Germans buy PS3s out of anti-American feeling.

First I think theres ample evidence that Germans have different tastes in gaming, as witness the popularity of PC gaming. That is not nullified by the most popular PS3 games being the same as in the US.

If they are playing the same games, then yes, it nullifies the position they have different tastes in gaming.

Still Id like to see some actual evidence to that effect, either sourced, or poly anecdotes from folks who actually live in europe.

Unfortunately, all you're going to get are the sales charts. The sales charts show the same kind of games sell in Germany and the US, though in the console market they buy the Playstation based on brand and company of origin exclusively. Unless you can put forth a rational argument why the 360 doesn't sell as well in Germany as the UK, when the games sold are identical.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher

If they are playing the same games, then yes, it nullifies the position they have different tastes in gaming.



Unfortunately, all you're going to get are the sales charts. The sales charts show the same kind of games sell in Germany and the US, though in the console market they buy the Playstation based on brand and company of origin exclusively. Unless you can put forth a rational argument why the 360 doesn't sell as well in Germany as the UK, when the games sold are identical.

Looking at the entire games space, the games sold are NOT the same. PC games are more popular, particular KINDS of PC games are more popular - (more games like Anno Domini, Paradox Games (a Swedish company) - which also fit into the board games market where theres a recognizable style of German board games.

All youre telling me is that Germans are as likely to favor COD4 over Uncharted as are US gamers. Yes Ive got that, but it doesnt prove that their overall tastes in games are the same - demonstrably they are not. Exactly how that plays into the 360 vs PS3 choice is harder to say. Again, Id like someone whos actually familiar with the European markets, and not just the sales charts, to tell me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Looking at the entire games space, the games sold are NOT the same. PC games are more popular, particular KINDS of PC games are more popular - (more games like Anno Domini, Paradox Games (a Swedish company) - which also fit into the board games market where theres a recognizable style of German board games.

That's a niche market unrelated to console gaming.

Further, you need to draw a distinct line between PLATFORMs and GAMES, which you are confusing a lot.

All youre telling me is that Germans are as likely to favor COD4 over Uncharted as are US gamers. Yes Ive got that, but it doesnt prove that their overall tastes in games are the same - demonstrably they are not.

Demonstrably they're not? Compare the console game sales of the 360 and PS3 and tell me the same kinds of games aren't selling best on each.

And if you talk one more minute about games 10 people buy by Paradox as if that has any relevance to the 360/PS3 debate, I'll throttle you myself.

Again, Id like someone whos actually familiar with the European markets, and not just the sales charts, to tell me.

This is stupid because the tastes of one person are not indicative of the tastes of the market. The sales chart tell the tale of the market, the people you ask tell the tale of their clique.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher

That's a niche market unrelated to console gaming.

And I explicitly stated that it was about the larger gamespace, and I am unsure precisely how it relates to the PS3/360 choice.

Further, you need to draw a distinct line between PLATFORMs and GAMES, which you are confusing a lot.

Ive provided examples of how Germany is different from the US in both platform and game preference. IIUC Germany has also preferred the PC to the 360 compared to the US on multiplat titles, though I dont have data handy.

Demonstrably they're not? Compare the console game sales of the 360 and PS3 and tell me the same kinds of games aren't selling best on each.

Thats one factoid about the markets. I clearly was broadening the discussion of the markets.

And if you talk one more minute about games 10 people buy by Paradox as if that has any relevance to the 360/PS3 debate, I'll throttle you myself.

Ask Germans if they think games like that are purchased by 10 people. Your own reaction to games like that typifies the differences between the markets.

This is stupid because the tastes of one person are not indicative of the tastes of the market. The sales chart tell the tale of the market, the people you ask tell the tale of their clique.

But the sales charts dont answer the question. They tell us THAT Germans prefer the PS3 as compared to Americans - and despite buying the same games on the PS3. They dont tell us why. Now can state that there are no benefits to the PS3 in playing the cross plat games - but THAT doesnt explain why Americans buy those games on the PS3, even in smaller numbers. Whatever reason there is, whether its cause PS3 has superior sound, or cause theyre just fanboys who loved their PS2s too much, could be the answer for Germany.


In the absence of EVEIDENCE that its nationalism, its just as rational to say that Germans dont like Bill Gates' hairstyle.

[Nostromo]

I was surprised to find out that the PS3 and the 360 are now both the same price here in Canada. They're both 399$. At that price the PS3 is clearly the better deal, hardware-wise. For the same price, you get a hard drive twice as big and Blu-ray. Rumour has it though that there will be a 50$ price drop for the Xbox.

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
And I explicitly stated that it was about the larger gamespace, and I am unsure precisely how it relates to the PS3/360 choice.

And I just explicitly told you it has no bearing on the console space.

Thats one factoid about the markets. I clearly was broadening the discussion of the markets.

"broadening the discussion" = moving the goal posts.

Ask Germans if they think games like that are purchased by 10 people. Your own reaction to games like that typifies the differences between the markets.

Do Paradox games sell over a million copies in Germany? What? No?

But the sales charts dont answer the question.

But they illustrate that there is no technical reason why the PS3 is doing better, eg your original claim that it's the type of games they play. The charts illustrate that not only is the PS3 selling more, but the gamers are buying the same games as 360 owners -- and the 360 version almost always has the best version of said game. This shows there's some kind of external, non-game objective reason for the difference in sales.

In the absence of EVEIDENCE that its nationalism, its just as rational to say that Germans dont like Bill Gates' hairstyle.

No, because there's no basis for that. There is a basis for anti-Americanism in some parts of Europe that is stronger than others.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Nostromo
I was surprised to find out that the PS3 and the 360 are now both the same price here in Canada. They're both 399$. At that price the PS3 is clearly the better deal, hardware-wise. For the same price, you get a hard drive twice as big and Blu-ray. Rumour has it though that there will be a 50$ price drop for the Xbox.

Sony's PS3 pricedrop in Canada was the biggest in the world, due to the strong dollar.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher


There already are 7 original games for download right now...

Their existence is hardly a sufficient condition for there to be a realisable benefit to gamers. I'll reserve judgement until I've tried them.

[Asher]

Several of them are quite cool. Jelly Car is particularly amusing.

You can also play the exact same games on the PC (since it's .NET) and depending how demanding they are, on the Zune (2nd gen) as well.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Nostromo
I was surprised to find out that the PS3 and the 360 are now both the same price here in Canada. They're both 399$. At that price the PS3 is clearly the better deal, hardware-wise. For the same price, you get a hard drive twice as big and Blu-ray. Rumour has it though that there will be a 50$ price drop for the Xbox.

Speak of the devil...

Xbox 360 pricecuts today in Canada due to the strong dollar:

The Xbox 360 Elite has been lowered from CAD$499 to CAD$449 while the Xbox 360 Premium has been lowered from CAD$399 to CAD$349, making the two units close to and quite a bit below the equivalently-priced PlayStation 3 40GB model, respectively. The Xbox Live Arcade, which hasn't been flying off the shelves, has now hit the CAD$279 price point, bringing it within spitting distance of the Wii.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher

But they illustrate that there is no technical reason why the PS3 is doing better, eg your original claim that it's the type of games they play. The charts illustrate that not only is the PS3 selling more, but the gamers are buying the same games as 360 owners -- and the 360 version almost always has the best version of said game. This shows there's some kind of external, non-game objective reason for the difference in sales.

There are clearly some factors that would lead some gamers to buy PS3, or PS3 games sales in NA and UK would be ZERO. Which they are not. Clearly the majority of the market in NA either discounts those factors, whatever they are, or finds the 360 exclusives trump them. If theres less taste for the 360 exclusives as a whole), which there may well be, (and which fact can NOT be ascertained by looking at the preferred games on any one console) that could account for the difference.

No, because there's no basis for that. There is a basis for anti-Americanism in some parts of Europe that is stronger than others.

But that cant be ascertained from the sales data, its an assertion based on anecdotal evidence at best (that Germans dislike say US for policy more than they dislike Bill Gates personally without regard to nationality) Whether it matters or even exists can only be ascertained by talking to people with first hand experience of the market.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher

Do Paradox games sell over a million copies in Germany? What? No?

I dont know, I suppose not. Not a trivial amount afaik, and relatively stronger than in NA.

I keep forgetting you think the only "real" gaming to be the blockbusters.

[Asher]

We're talking about the big picture here, very obviously. Whether some niche game still sells a paltry amount -- but relatively more in one market or another -- has no bearing on the gaming community at large. It's time for a scope check, LOTM.

[Asher]

http://kotaku.com/359754/nintendo-announces-wii-pay--play

Today, during a GDC presentation, Nintendo's Takashi Aoyama announced a new expansion to Nintendo's Wi-Fi services called Wii Pay & Play. Aoyama explained that Nintendo will begin "collecting fees for some services [that] will allow us to adapt flexibly." In other words, by subsidizing additional, unnamed service and feature costs to consumers, Nintendo feels they can explore new concepts and channels.


He added that it was a Nintendo initiative to avoid misleading consumers into thinking they can buy games that can be played entirely free when they cannot (whether or not this implies an initiative to begin charging for multiplayer content was unclear). To aid in a clear cost presentation, the blue WFC logo will be joined with a similar red logo featuring the line "Pay & Play."

While we were offered no additional details, we understand that the red stands for danger.

I sincerely hope if they plan to charge Xbox Live-style, they have a service that isn't less evolved than Dreamcast's online play.