MMORPG almost kills two babies

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove, but an inherent spell resistance or increased save always trumps buffs. All your nifty buffs will be shred to pieces with just one Mordenkainens Disjunction (and then try to rebuff with scrolls... ), while resistance gained from spellcraft remains. And even if your buffs won't get dispelled, the one or other spell will get through your SR and then still has to be resisted.

Meh, I just don't think it's worth 20 skill points, that's all. A save bonus is always better than no save bonus, but it's still just not very impressive for all the points. I usually get it too just because I can't imagine a wizard without spellcraft, but I think balance-wise it's just too expensive.

Edit: with feat equivalent calculus:

1 feat = 5 skill points (Open Minded)
1 feat = +2 to a save (Iron Will, etc.)
20 skill points = +8 to a save

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Meh, I just don't think it's worth 20 skill points, that's all. A save bonus is always better than no save bonus, but it's still just not very impressive for all the points. I usually get it too just because I can't imagine a wizard without spellcraft, but I think balance-wise it's just too expensive.

Edit: with feat equivalent calculus:

1 feat = 5 skill points (Open Minded)
1 feat = +2 to a save (Iron Will, etc.)
20 skill points = +8 to a save

Not a, but all saves. Btw, 20 give only +4 to all, 40 give +8. I allow myself to extend your calculus:

1 feat = 5 skill points (Open Minded)

1 feat = +2 to a save (Iron Will etc.)
3 feats = +2 to all saves (Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude)
6 feats = +4 to all saves (the above plus their Epic equivalent)

20 skill points = +4 to all saves (Spellcraft) <-- worth only 4 feats by your calculus

Additionally, you can extend the saves gained by spellcraft up to +8 to all in an epic build, while with feats +4 to all is the highest you can ever get.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Not a, but all saves. Btw, 20 give only +4 to all, 40 give +8. I allow myself to extend your calculus:

I was demonstrating that by the calculus, 20 skill points should give you +8 to one save. You're right that a bonus to all spell saves is better than a bonus to just one save, but it's not all saves unless the spellcraft check works for nonmagical stuff too. You're still got poison, traps, disease, and so on.

Does the spellcraft bonus work for spell-like and supernatural abilities, too, like a bodak's gaze or something? That would make it a lot better.

At this point I'm really just arguing for the sake of the thread.

[Harovan]

The spellcraft bonus works for just that, spells. Which means

- not traps, obviously
- not supernatural abilities

But it includes poison and disease as long as they're dealt by a spell driven touch attack.

But you shouldn't rely on one protection anyway. To say "I have high saves and don't need SR" would be just as silly as a middle ages noble to say "I don't need walls because I have a moat". Of course different treats require different measures.