MMORPG almost kills two babies

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
There are much more feat wasters, no need to unload your wrath on tumble. A lot of feats (and skills btw) needed for prestige classes simply don't make sense and in most cases do just one thing - hurt the build.

Sure, but the whole point of prestige classes is basically to waste feats/spell levels/skill points in exchange for weird abilities. PRCs have been wasting feats since the 3.0 DMG Dwarven Defender. Having a commonly taken skill make a commonly taken feat absolutely useless is another thing altogether.

And I must unload my wrath on tumble

...although there are plenty of other terrible ones for NWN (spellcraft, discipline, and all the social feats that were always useless in multiplayer).

That's probably why it has been toned down to 1 AC for 10 ranks in NWN2. But alas, they introduced other imbalances.

With 10 ranks in Tumble you pretty much are immune to movement AOOs anyway. Why an extra boost to AC is needed is a mystery to me. The NWN1 Tumble AC bonus was whack, anyone can see it's ****ed up with some basic feat calculus...

Normal:
1 feat = +1 AC vs. one opponent per round (Dodge)

NWN1:
1 feat = 5 skill ranks (Open Minded)
5 skill ranks = +1 AC (Tumble)
1 feat = +1 AC against everybody (goddamn it)

[Dis]

haha, good luck playing video games in prison.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
...although there are plenty of other terrible ones for NWN (spellcraft, discipline, and all the social feats that were always useless in multiplayer).

Discipline useless? I count it essential for a meleer in NWN1, especially a tank-type, not necessarily a damage dealer. Without a good discipline you will be knocked down and/or called shot mercilessly by an experienced opponent (and even the AI). The skill has been removed in NWN2, there the discipline check has been changed out in favor of a check against the higher of STR and DEX (which makes sense IMO).

Spellcraft could be more useful if counter-spelling worked properly. Still it gives +1 to all saves against spells for every 5 ranks in both NWN1 and 2, which is IMO pretty nice.

Yea, and diplo/bluff/intimidate et al. are of course useless in MP. Another useless skill in 3.5 is taunt. It's been half-good in 3.0 (just drew AoOs), now it's completely botched.

[Jamski]

Spellcraft ranks were required for Epic Spells.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Yeah let's have a debate about the relative effectiveness of tumble for different builds.

You see LotM?

[Gamecube64]

I feel wholly responsible, and it is glorious.

[Dis]

haha, it's been a while since I played nwn.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike


You see LotM?

Uncle.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Discipline useless?

No, I said terrible, not useless. Discipline was without a doubt the worst conceived idea of NWN.

Special combat moves in original 3/3.5 D&D are all opposed checks modified by some combination of BAB/Str/Dex/Size. There was never any need for a skill to oppose those maneuvers anyway. Fighters already have some of the lowest skill points in the game; it was stupid to then virtually require them to max out a skill that doesn't actually let you do anything except resist attacks that never required a skill to resist in standard d20 in the first place. It was a terrible design decision that made the limited skill choice of combat classes even more limited.

It could also become totally useless depending on the campaign; most of the SP campaigns had virtually no creatures that used taunt/knockdown/called shot except for maybe a handful of "bosses." The same was often true of persistent worlds online. You always had to blow a ton of skill points on Discipline and often you only got to use it about once a level.

Spellcraft could be more useful if counter-spelling worked properly. Still it gives +1 to all saves against spells for every 5 ranks in both NWN1 and 2, which is IMO pretty nice.

Yeah, the problem was that counterspelling sucked. Most casters I met online didn't even know you could; I had someone accuse me of "hacking" once when I counterspelled some chump out of about 20 spells in a row. And as far as saving throws vs. spells, Arcane Defense is just as good for the feat-equivalents anyway. Wizards don't exactly have a lot of skill points to throw around.

Yea, and diplo/bluff/intimidate et al. are of course useless in MP. Another useless skill in 3.5 is taunt. It's been half-good in 3.0 (just drew AoOs), now it's completely botched.

Taunt wasn't terrible in NWN if you were working in a group against one big creature or boss. Taking down a big monster's AC has an enormous effect when there's a party of you trying to kill it. Called shot was far more useless, though for special attacks Knockdown was really the only way to go, because it was made so much better than trip in d20.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Yeah, the problem was that counterspelling sucked. Most casters I met online didn't even know you could; I had someone accuse me of "hacking" once when I counterspelled some chump out of about 20 spells in a row. And as far as saving throws vs. spells, Arcane Defense is just as good for the feat-equivalents anyway. Wizards don't exactly have a lot of skill points to throw around.

Sorcerers don't. Wizards do due to high INT, and frankly there aren't much more skills useful for a wizard. And of course, other classes like bards and rogues do too. I know a lot of builds that take 1-2 wizard levels exactly to get the 20 ranks (or 40 for a level 40 build) of spellcraft - not for counterspelling, but for basically having a ring of resistance +4 or even +8 for free. Especially in higher levels, when monsters start to lob DC25 or DC30 spells at you, every little bit of saves counts. By the way you can't do that anymore, as in 3.5 you're allowed to carry over at most 5 skill points.

Taunt wasn't terrible in NWN if you were working in a group against one big creature or boss. Taking down a big monster's AC has an enormous effect when there's a party of you trying to kill it.

That's why I said it was half-good, just the AoO's it drew sucked.

Oh any by the way, all the others, **** you! Especially LOTM for choosing such a sucky title for what could evolve into a perfectly good NWN thread.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
It could also become totally useless depending on the campaign; most of the SP campaigns had virtually no creatures that used taunt/knockdown/called shot except for maybe a handful of "bosses." The same was often true of persistent worlds online. You always had to blow a ton of skill points on Discipline and often you only got to use it about once a level.

Campaign depending builds suck anyway.

You never needed listen and spot in the NWN OC. I took them anyway eventually, "just because", as I would never build a blind rogue or a deaf bard .

As far as discipline goes, of course you wouldn't need it for the yard trash. Heck, you can kill that with a Toothpick -1, that's why it's yard trash . Of course special skills and feats are mainly for the bosses. And they tremendously help against things like Lt. Cellik (if I recall the name correct) or these nasty dire spiders in Harbor and Beggar's, to limit myself just to the OC chapter 1 (but other modules have them too).

EDIT: Just for the record, I still agree with you that discipline is "terrible". I much more like the 3.5 approach (check against the bigger of STR and DEX).

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Sorcerers don't. Wizards do due to high INT, and frankly there aren't much more skills useful for a wizard. And of course, other classes like bards and rogues do too. I know a lot of builds that take 1-2 wizard levels exactly to get the 20 ranks (or 40 for a level 40 build) of spellcraft - not for counterspelling, but for basically having a ring of resistance +4 or even +8 for free. Especially in higher levels, when monsters start to lob DC25 or DC30 spells at you, every little bit of saves counts. By the way you can't do that anymore, as in 3.5 you're allowed to carry over at most 5 skill points.

Point taken, but when you're at the level where you are getting DC 30 spells, you should probably have SR, not to mention spell mantles and immunity items. I wouldn't be relying on a saving throw that late in the game anyway.

Campaign depending builds suck anyway.

This is true

You never needed listen and spot in the NWN OC. I took them anyway eventually, "just because", as I would never build a blind rogue or a deaf bard .

Also true

As far as discipline goes, of course you wouldn't need it for the yard trash. Heck, you can kill that with a Toothpick -1, that's why it's yard trash . Of course special skills and feats are mainly for the bosses. And they tremendously help against things like Lt. Cellik (if I recall the name correct) or these nasty dire spiders in Harbor and Beggar's, to limit myself just to the OC chapter 1 (but other modules have them too).

Yes, but some skills are much better. A fighter is better off taking points in things that are used all the time (lore, heal) or cross-class in something that's really quite good (search, open lock). I'm not saying Discipline isn't useful, however, I'm saying it's a terrible design decision.

EDIT: Just for the record, I still agree with you that discipline is "terrible". I much more like the 3.5 approach (check against the bigger of STR and DEX).

The reason you like this approach better is because it is the actual D&D approach, and it was the actual D&D approach in 3.0 as well. Bioware just decided for some reason that it needed shaking up.

The reason for that is probably because the limited engine of NWN nixes most of the fighter's class skills in D&D: climb, jump, and swim come to mind. With no "z axis," as it were, climb and jump aren't really options, and swim wasn't coded in either. I suppose they felt like they had to give fighters another few skills, so they gave them Discipline (a brainless skill sink) and Parry (absolutely useless). It seems like a simple solution to burn up the fighter's skill points.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Point taken, but when you're at the level where you are getting DC 30 spells, you should probably have SR, not to mention spell mantles and immunity items. I wouldn't be relying on a saving throw that late in the game anyway.

Yea, blessed be those who can get inherent SR, like monks or clerics (through spell). Spell mantles (what arcane casters get) are nice in theory, but wear off way too fast to be really useful. All others either have to rely on items (campaign dependent) or beef up their saves (campaign independent btw).

That being said, it would really be good if the main benefit gotten from spellcraft wouldn't be an increase in saves, but something more related to ... spellcraft.

PS: Anyone still talking about dead babies? Open your own thread!

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yea, blessed be those who can get inherent SR, like monks or clerics (through spell).

Don't forget items. Also, Wizards get Protection from Spells (+8 save bonus) to beef up the save.

Spell mantles (what arcane casters get) are nice in theory, but wear off way too fast to be really useful. All others either have to rely on items (campaign dependent) or beef up their saves (campaign independent btw).

Any caster facing DC30 saves has enough money to buy a surfeit of spell mantle scrolls if he needs them. Additionally, the caster can overcome a great deal of spells through immunity; globe of invulnerability, shadow shield, and mind blank make most spell attacks useless anyway.

That being said, it would really be good if the main benefit gotten from spellcraft wouldn't be an increase in saves, but something more related to ... spellcraft.

Well, it's key in D&D because wizards need it to learn spells. It also replicates the "lore" skill to some extent (for potions and the like). Personally, I'd take out Lore entirely and let spellcasters handle identification with spellcraft and Identify spells.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Don't forget items. Also, Wizards get Protection from Spells (+8 save bonus) to beef up the save.

Items are nice, but campaign dependent. You better don't rely on them with a robust build.

Any caster facing DC30 saves has enough money to buy a surfeit of spell mantle scrolls if he needs them. Additionally, the caster can overcome a great deal of spells through immunity; globe of invulnerability, shadow shield, and mind blank make most spell attacks useless anyway.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove, but an inherent spell resistance or increased save always trumps buffs. All your nifty buffs will be shred to pieces with just one Mordenkainens Disjunction (and then try to rebuff with scrolls... ), while resistance gained from spellcraft remains. And even if your buffs won't get dispelled, the one or other spell will get through your SR and then still has to be resisted.

You never can have enough saves, ever. And the most wonderful of all is, they stack.

Another aspect - all the buffs you named are pretty high level arcane caster spells. The charm of spellcraft ranks in NWN1 is, that you can use them with any class, just save up the skill points and take 1-2 levels of arcane caster.