Civilization 5 - WoW style.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mactbone
GameBanshee has a preview of Depth of Peril. Maybe that's similar to what you're looking for?

That sounds a lot like UFO: Enemy Unknown. It's just the tactical squad action part has been expanded to be the main game, with base operations tacked on.

[Space05us]

Originally posted by Blake
I am extra critical of WoW on the grounds of intellect-dulling, it doesn't do a particularly good job of keeping the brain engaged. This is in contrast with other games like TBS, which you'd probably just stop playing, or play less, when they stop keeping the brain engaged.

Well, WoW does keep the brain engaged - but it's more at an instinctive reward level, WoW keeps the monkey engaged - "I want stuff! Ooh aah!". Intellect killing. The game is really firmly grounded on that mechanism for keeping players.

I enjoyed playing WoW for the warcraft Lore and stuff, but in all honesty it's a more productive use of time to just whore the website and forums, can get all the tasty information with only a tiny fraction of the time investment.

What game isn't "intellect-dulling"? Once you learn a game it will always be a grind. When you first start playing WoW there is actually a TON of information to take in about just about everything in the WoW world. Probably the only non "intellect-dulling" part of WoW, as you see it, is PvP. You might disagree but when you hit 70 you can't just run up to someone and auto-attack. In order to win you have to have a plan mapped out in your mind, and you have to know what that other character is capable of and how to react to their moves. It might not be chess but it's certainly not a mindless grind (unless you're a warlock).

Same with civilization, TONS of information to take in at first, but once you become comfortable with it how often do you find yourself learning anything new about it?

All that being said, my favorite part of WoW was end game raiding (when 60 was the level cap). Being in a team with 39 other people to tackle seemingly impossible odds and overcoming them for phat epix! I didn't really care that there was a point when it wasn't mentally challenging, it was fun damn it!

(and oh the things discussed over vent )

[FrostyBoy]

This may sound strange to some of you, but in my games, i've never really had to grind that much. Are some of you just playing it stupidly? Such as trying to level - that would definitely kill the fun.

[Nostromo]

Your not doing quests? The majority of quests are glorified grinding, IMO.

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Space05us



What game isn't "intellect-dulling"? Once you learn a game it will always be a grind. When you first start playing WoW there is actually a TON of information to take in about just about everything in the WoW world. Probably the only non "intellect-dulling" part of WoW, as you see it, is PvP. You might disagree but when you hit 70 you can't just run up to someone and auto-attack. In order to win you have to have a plan mapped out in your mind, and you have to know what that other character is capable of and how to react to their moves. It might not be chess but it's certainly not a mindless grind (unless you're a warlock).

Same with civilization, TONS of information to take in at first, but once you become comfortable with it how often do you find yourself learning anything new about it?

All that being said, my favorite part of WoW was end game raiding (when 60 was the level cap). Being in a team with 39 other people to tackle seemingly impossible odds and overcoming them for phat epix! I didn't really care that there was a point when it wasn't mentally challenging, it was fun damn it!

(and oh the things discussed over vent )

Methinks your confusing learning-curve and grind.

Grinding, in the computer gaming sense, is a pejorative term used to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the contest of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. ...

Not to be confused with the dance called grind:

where a guy grabs a girl's waist and moves with her with rap or some other type of music, called grinding because of the "grinding between a guy's crotch and a girl's ass"

Damn, when she was grinding with joey, he was gettin all up in therr.

But that sort of grinding is genuinely fun!

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Sn00py
This may sound strange to some of you, but in my games, i've never really had to grind that much. Are some of you just playing it stupidly? Such as trying to level - that would definitely kill the fun.

It's certainly true that grind is in the eye of the, eh, grinder.

For me it was only 40-55 that felt like grind, and the end of getting tier 1 epics.

The rest was fun or I wouldn't have played it.

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by MJW
Oh, thats what you meant? That the WHOLE game is about grinding? I agree then. Thanks Blake.

Edit: The longer the day goes on the siller I act. Saying that grinding sucks when the whole game is about grinding is silly. I had to call it. I played WoW for sometime and it's addictive. I once played 6 hours straight.

Originally posted by MJW
Oh, thats what you meant? That the WHOLE game is about grinding? I agree then. Thanks Blake.

Edit: The longer the day goes on the siller I act. Saying that grinding sucks when the whole game is about grinding is silly. I had to call it. I played WoW for sometime and it's addictive. I once played 6 hours straight.

I played up to level 26 or 27. From level 1 to level 18, the game is about 85% grind, IMO. That's a lot, but when I was about to call it quits, the game always managed to reel me in with what I call a WOW moment. An example is when I visited Ironforge for the first time. And I admited in another thread that, at that point, I was addicted to the damn game. But from level 18 to level 27, it felt like 99% grind and there were no more WoW moments to reel me in. So I called it quits.

You assume that WoW is addictive simply because its fun. I have a hard time believing its that simple.

First of all, a game isn't necessarily addictive because its fun. Look at slot machines, for example. Clearly, you wouldn't say that people are addicted to slot machines simply because they're fun. I'm pretty sure there are other, more decisive factors involved.

Second, games like Half-Life 2 and Halo 2 are a lot more fun than WoW, IMO, but they're nowhere as addictive. So if you ask me, I would say that WoW is extremely addictive, despite the fact that its not a very fun game. So I don't believe that people are addicted to WoW simply because its supposedly a "really, really fun game". I'm pretty sure there are other, more decisive factors involved. I believe Blizzard are exploiting addiction-inducing or habit-inducing mechanisms that, IMO, have not much to do with fun. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

The cigarettes they sell today are a lot more addictive than those they sold 30 years ago, but they don't taste better.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Space05us



What game isn't "intellect-dulling"? Once you learn a game it will always be a grind.

I feel that strategy games are far less intellect-dulling, or enhance thinking skills.

While WoW does definitely have strategic aspects, for example, boss fights, it doesn't change the fact that between every strategic aspect there is a lot of mundane make-work.

In a game like CIV, if you reach a point where you feel the game is a chore (like it's end game), you can just quit and start a new game. But in WoW, you're being led by a carrot on a stick - you can't just quit because there's something objective at the end of a long string of grind. In this regard, late game instance runs are especially terrible because of the random factor - you don't even know how long you'll be stuck doing the run again and again and again...

Now you don't have to play WoW that way, but it is how it's designed to play and how it's intended to be played. The fundamental problem with WoW and MMORPG's in general, is the "reward" you get in game is directly proportional to the time spent playing. A lot of that "reward" is erased when you stop playing a particular toon. In contrast with a strategy game the reward is all in your head - in cognitive ability, while your skill at the game is somewhat dependent on the time spent playing it, at least your "skill" can't be erased.

I really have a lack of respect for any game which intimately couples reward with time investment. That of course includes the game of life, it should come as no surprise that IRL I shun consumerism .

[FrostyBoy]

I somewhat agree with Nostromos. But I feel the problem does not lie in the number of kills one has to make, it lies in the method, and for WoW, the method is repetitive, this feels tedious and gets boring.

The solution is to add elements of uncertainty; physics does a good job of this, but physics + MMO's do not mix well as far as I understand. But hopefully Blizzard is cooking up a nice WoW 2 to solve these problems.

I would love the ability to mix powers, say Fireball and that Frost Trap, I forget the names, but perhaps it can not only freeze you to the ground, but burn you while you're standing there, that would be killer.

Of course, this mixing of powers, or weapons, or whatever, should not be pre-set, but defined by a bunch of rules, unfortunately, this would require a Spore-like engine, and again, I doubt MMO's can handle the that kind of engine.