The Oblivion Thread

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Asher
No, I get his point, but his point is basically he doesn't like open-ended RPGs.

If you restrict what you can and can't do, you make it a linear RPG instead of an open-ended RPG.

I have to agree with Asher here. Bethesda doesn't make traditional type RPGs. Their RPGs are totally focused on the 'go anywhere, do anything' idea. Level scaling allows that. Now some NPCs do have static levels, but a vast majority of what you run into are things you can handle. That allows you to go in any direction you want at the start of the game. You can go North, South, East or West and still be able to have a good time. In a game where, say, the North (Jerrall Mountains) was where uber-ogres were or something, you've basically restricted that to the higher levels, meaning you effectively can't go there if you are lower level, making it far more linear.

It seems to me that Morrowind was tolerated by these people who like traditional RPGs, because it was easy. Otherwise, its very similar to the system used in Oblivion. The difference being that the level caps were much lower (I'm not sure any random monster or bandit was over level 15, just specific NPCs like Dagoth Ur and Vivic).

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by nostromo


Me too. It seems they're applying their system a little too mechanically. The Arena champion, for example, should have a minimum level. There shouldn't be a level 2 or 3 champion. If your PC is of a higher level than him, the game could then ajust the champion's level accordindly.

Indeed, and that's my personal objection. I haven't even gone to the arena yet, figuring I'll wait until I feel the champion will be impressive enough for me

[BustaMike]

You guys are still ignoring a major point. Having everything levelled to you takes away any fear of running into something that you shouldn't be able to kill.

If you're going to fight the final legendary world killer hellspawn or whatever, you should have to prepare for it. Games should have moments where you say "OH ****! That thing just whooped my ass! I need to get stronger before I try that again." There's no reason an open ended game can't have this. Umbra from Morrowind is a perfect example. You need to prepare before you take that guy on. Oblivion does not have that at all at any point in the game and it's lacking because of it.

I also find it funny that you say "it isn't believable". What, shooting magic from your fingers is?

I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist saying this. The levelled lists take away the continuity of the world. As I said before, waking up and seeing every NPC in the game with shiny new glass and daedric armor with no explanation whatsoever destroys the immersion. If you "roleplayers" are ok with that you may want to rethink your definition of the word.

[vee4473]

Forgive what may seem like a stupid question, but if the game is made to have the creatures you encounter scale to your level so that it's not too hard nor easy and any creature can be beaten at any level, what's the point of having any level system at all?

or am i misunderstanding the game?

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Has anyone heard of a fix yet for the slowdown problems with Radeons in regards to the Oblivion Gate, Summon-Spell effects, etc? The game runs great on my system except for those few things, which unfortunately make certain parts of the game nearly unplayable...

I'm not sure this is the same thing you're referring to, but I notice that my game tends to lag slightly when it zooms in on a character's face, either in conversation or character creation. I don't lose FPS, but the mouse lags behind when you move it and clicks are instant like they should be. Every other part of the game has no issues. I'm currently running a Radeon X800.

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by vee4473
Forgive what may seem like a stupid question, but if the game is made to have the creatures you encounter scale to your level so that it's not too hard nor easy and any creature can be beaten at any level, what's the point of having any level system at all?

or am i misunderstanding the game?

Bingo!

Right now the only point is to get access to new skills, armor, spells, etc. It serves no purpose as far as game progression goes.

[Solver]

That's just not true. Disliking the scaling system is one thing, but claiming that it is absolute ad every monster scales is just outright wrong.

You'll encounter some Goblins in a cave at level 1 and at level 5. At level 5, these Goblins will be much easier, although yes, you will get a few new, tougher creatures.

So the "any creature can be beaten at any level" just isn't true. Read the link I provided on the last page, most creatures in fact have fixed levels. If you want to check for yourself, take a level 1 character, use the console to place a Dremora warlord near you and good luck beating him.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You guys are still ignoring a major point. Having everything levelled to you takes away any fear of running into something that you shouldn't be able to kill.

So? Where is the fun in running into something that kills you with one hit? How does that add to anything? How does that add to non-linearity (the focus of TES games)?

Besides, try to take on the Grey Fox at Level 1. Let me know how that goes (Grey Fox, IIRC, is level fixed to level 30).

As I said before, waking up and seeing every NPC in the game with shiny new glass and daedric armor with no explanation whatsoever destroys the immersion.

Why? After all, you, in the space of a few months of game time started as a peon and became a bad ass who has all sorts of armor and weapons.

Its the Morrowind phenomenon. If all the NPCs stay weak and you are superstrong, why play any more? It becomes a snoozefest. Even big time vampires are a joke to kill.

Forgive what may seem like a stupid question, but if the game is made to have the creatures you encounter scale to your level so that it's not too hard nor easy and any creature can be beaten at any level, what's the point of having any level system at all?

or am i misunderstanding the game?

Your skills can't go beyond your primary attribute, so you must be able to increase those before your skills can rise higher.

[vee4473]

Should have read your link first solver.

I just found solver's link to the levelling system...The level list system sounds interesting, but it would indeed seem to remove the "on the edge of your seat" feeling when venturing forth, since you know you won't be thrown anything that you can't reasonably handle. And you won't be able to say "you whipped me this time, but we'll meet again in 5 levels you b****"

Well, I guess it's something I have to try before my mind can be made up.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by vee4473
Should have read your link first solver.

I just found solver's link to the levelling system...The level list system sounds interesting, but it would indeed seem to remove the "on the edge of your seat" feeling when venturing forth, since you know you won't be thrown anything that you can't reasonably handle. And you won't be able to say "you whipped me this time, but we'll meet again in 5 levels you b****"

Well, I guess it's something I have to try before my mind can be made up.

Yeah, it's different. It's not the traditional RPG system. I recommend you do try it, because I love it. I'm getting a challenge even as I rise up levels, wheras in other RPGs, it became almost laughably easy as I leveled up, or the game was incredibly linear, so you'd meet the hard creatures exactly when they wanted you to.

[yin26]

Originally posted by BustaMike
You guys are still ignoring a major point. Having everything levelled to you takes away any fear of running into something that you shouldn't be able to kill.

Read Solver's link, please. Plenty of areas have creatures set to be levels above you.

[Dis]

Originally posted by BustaMike


Really?

First of all, it makes leveling pointless. You can beat the game at level 1 or level 100 and regardless of what level you are the difficulty will be the same... in theory.

IMO, that's horrible by itself but it actually causes more problems. The game doesn't stay the same when you level, it becomes harder. This would be fine if you were progressing and going on to new things that are supposed to be harder, but that's not how the system works. The same things become harder. Closing the Kvatch gate at level 2 is much easier than closing it at level 30. That's just wrong.

The reason this happens is because when the enemies go up in levels or get replaced by harder enemies, it's always a combat increase. When you level, you don't necessarily get a combat increase. If you level your speechcraft and mercantile you aren't any tougher, but the monsters are. Even if you level combat skills but don't get a new weapon, spell, or armor the monsters do. Every level you get makes the game harder. It's completely counterintuitive to how leveling is supposed to work.

When I gain a level I should be stronger. The point of getting stronger is so that I can take on an enemy that I couldn't before. In Oblivion, this enemy doesn't exist because the enemy is always my level. There is no boss that I need to level up for. That boss is always my level. It's ridiculous.

I agree. I think there's already a mod that disables this. Not sure how effective the mod is. I think I'll be installing it. Even in my first run through the game. I just don't think I'll like the scaling system.

[Dis]

Originally posted by yin26
Naw, I disagree. That's why I'm likely going back to make sure I get training in other areas each level. That's what it's there for. Consider the other alternative, the one that I find a lot more boring: You ramp up your levels and powers against static and scripted monsters/events so that most of the game (once you get rolling) is just a mindless killing fest that leads up to one rather mindless enounter with a boss. Been there, done that.

Now, I understand why some gamers prefer that method (it's the norm, after all), but I'm enjoying a challenge that keeps pace with my character's growth (or surpasses, if I don't pay attention to training), even if it seems counter-intuitive. For me, it's just more interesting over 150+ hours.

or you just design the game so that you encounter harder monsters as you progress in quests. I know it's more challenging in such an open-ended game such as this. But the designers chose the easy way out and just did the level scaling.

[Solver]

Originally posted by vee4473
And you won't be able to say "you whipped me this time, but we'll meet again in 5 levels you b****

True, there's little of that. But there's quite enough of "these guys used to seem so hard and now I kick your butt". That's exactly how I now feel about a range of monsters.

[Kinjiru]

Originally posted by BustaMike


I'm not sure this is the same thing you're referring to, but I notice that my game tends to lag slightly when it zooms in on a character's face, either in conversation or character creation. I don't lose FPS, but the mouse lags behind when you move it and clicks are instant like they should be. Every other part of the game has no issues. I'm currently running a Radeon X800.

No, the problem he is talking about seems to be limited to the 9800 series. I have the Mobility 9800, a friend has the 9800XT and I think vee has the 9800Pro (IIRC).

The issue is that invisibility, chameleon and certain other special effects just kill our cards. A good example is each time the assassins appear in the opening sequence. Or when you are in the town with the invisi folks (framerates are great, until one of the invisibles enters your FOV).

When those effects are present on the screen (even though we cannot actually see the effects!) framerates drop to 1 per four seconds on my card and 3 frames per sec on my friends 9800XT. Some instruction set in the game regarding those spell effects is trying either use a feature our cards don't have (some 3.0 shader effect maybe?) or is trying to cram too much data through the GPU.

I have mucked about with many ini settings trying to handle the issue and have had no luck so far. One partial 'solution' is to attempt to look away from the effect in question. If it is not in your field of view, your framerates will stay high. Doesn't work fully, for obvious reasons, but it you know you need to pass through a section where the effects are present, facing backwards will cut your transit time from 20 minutes (to walk through the above mentioned town) to a tolerable (but still highly annoying) five minutes...