Is there any innovation in gaming?

[Sandman]

"Graphics may be better, but back in the day we had more gameplay."

"(easily definable thing) may be better, but back in the day we had more (vaguely definable thing)."

'Graphics over gameplay' = gamer nostalgia. I doubt it has any meaningful basis in fact. What is strange is that those who express this view seem to think that they've invented it themselves, or that it's an underground, secret thing, only known to an select few.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm there for the narritive, the story and ultimately the questions that movie poses about its plot and the answers it offers(or not). thats MY reasons for watching.

So, uh... you are looking for innovation in storytelling for your games? What, the next game based on James Joyce's method of storytelling will be your 'innovative' game?

And please tell me how Doom has more 'storytelling' than Half Life.

What does it effect most? the way the graphics look. Its nothing to do with the narrative or story or idea of what the game is trying to do - unless the whole plot revolves around physics type problems

You are absolutely insane. So a more realistic model of how objects react in the world has mostly to do with graphics? Huh... I was thinking it may have a greater impact on, oh, I dunno, your strategy. Things moving more realistically, that's mainly for a graphics? WTF?

I strongly disagree, mainly because I understand that in development the graphics teams have absolutely nothing to do with the game design or game programming aside from the graphics engine. Hell, the vast majority of games recycle their game engines (Unreal Engine, etc).

Indeed... I wonder exactly how much time is spent by the development team (as a percentage of total time) when they are licensing another graphics engine?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike


That's a bit of an aside LotM.

actually it was in support of Sandman's point. Even for TBS, the hard core players, those most looking for challenge, are playing MP.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
"Graphics may be better, but back in the day we had more gameplay."

"(easily definable thing) may be better, but back in the day we had more (vaguely definable thing)."
.

sometimes a quantifiable thing improves, and a non-quantifiable things does deteriorate. The problem here is not so much that gameplay is vaguely definable, as that its so multifaceted. If RTS have improved significantly (RON vs AOE1, say) but RPGs have declined, which is more important? If interfaces have gotten smarter, but stories weaker, which matters more? If we focus on decay in existing genres, how do we count the creation of new genres, and new hybrids? Graphics it seems, are simpler, cause everyone more or less agrees that certain FPS represent cutting edge graphics. Also of course, being driven by hardware, graphics tends to improve across genres.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


actually it was in support of Sandman's point. Even for TBS, the hard core players, those most looking for challenge, are playing MP.

It's not really true though, because of the format. The really hardcore players wont be playing TBS for a start, but genres more suited to MP. Playing TBS MP requires not only being really into TBS but also the willingness to either play very long games, or shoehorn the game into something looking a bit more like a MP game. I have tried and enjoyed both, but overall prefer comparison games for my competitive fix.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

sometimes a quantifiable thing improves, and a non-quantifiable things does deteriorate. The problem here is not so much that gameplay is vaguely definable, as that its so multifaceted. If RTS have improved significantly (RON vs AOE1, say) but RPGs have declined, which is more important? If interfaces have gotten smarter, but stories weaker, which matters more? If we focus on decay in existing genres, how do we count the creation of new genres, and new hybrids? Graphics it seems, are simpler, cause everyone more or less agrees that certain FPS represent cutting edge graphics. Also of course, being driven by hardware, graphics tends to improve across genres.

There is a weakness of story based RPGs today that didn't exist say 5 years ago. Games that match or beat those are possible (KOTOR for instance, though even that is a little old now) but strangely thin on the ground...........

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
.........

(ref Physics engines)What does it effect most? the way the graphics look. Its nothing to do with the narrative or story or idea of what the game is trying to do - unless the whole plot revolves around physics type problems

You are absolutely insane. So a more realistic model of how objects react in the world has mostly to do with graphics? Huh... I was thinking it may have a greater impact on, oh, I dunno, your strategy. Things moving more realistically, that's mainly for a graphics? WTF?

Being deliberately obtuse doesnt make me want to discuss it further with you. If you dont 'get it' after my more than generous posts - then fine, i dont care. I've said all that needs be said

[Imran Siddiqui]

Which is fine because you are making no sense. You sound like the old guys who sit around saying how everything was better in the "Good Old Days".

[El_Cid]

if 30 is "old-man" in your book - you got some real world shocks coming your way!

But anyway what i object to about your conduct, and why i dont want to discuss it with you, is that for whatever reason you decided to personally insult someone who was just trying to...... you know give a different angle to the topic at hand - its called debating....posting opinions on something - i thought its what forums were for?

But thanks to your immaturity, it has ensured i wont invade 'your' personal world anymore - obviously its too threatening for you to handle??

good luck

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by El_Cid


if 30 is "old-man" in your book - you got some real world shocks coming your way!

But anyway what i object to about your conduct, and why i dont want to discuss it with you, is that for whatever reason you decided to personally insult someone who was just trying to...... you know give a different angle to the topic at hand - its called debating....posting opinions on something - i thought its what forums were for?

But thanks to your immaturity, it has ensured i wont invade 'your' personal world anymore - obviously its too threatening for you to handle??

good luck

Youre talking to IS, and Asher. They have a distinctive "style" of debate. Dont take it seriously. Im sure IS has called me insane before. I take it as a complement.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I didn't you WERE an old man, I said you are LIKE an old man . Reading comprehension is key .

And if calling someone 'insane' for their opinion is a personal insult... well, there is no hope for you anymore. Why don't you ask Ming if he considers such to be discussing the issue or discussing the poster .

[Krill]

The problem with improving an Ai during develpoemnt is that the game is still changing, and while you could change teh AI from one version to another, you are almost certainly changing the system that the new AI is supposed to understand better. Which simply doesn't work.

So you can't really improve the AI until near lockdown which means that you have very little time to improve the AI until you start patching the game.

As for MP/SP debate...SP is a much larger market for Civ than MP, but MP is still important; the game has to be playable for MP, maybe not for simul turns but definately for PBEM just to get more SP players making the leap.

And look at the sort of bugs that PBEM has unearthed? Anyone here remember the doughnut attack from Civ 3? Unlimited movement from RR's as well...MP has it's uses because it shows alot of bugs due to the extremities that humans are willing to go to win...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I didn't you WERE an old man, I said you are LIKE an old man . Reading comprehension is key .

And if calling someone 'insane' for their opinion is a personal insult... well, there is no hope for you anymore. Why don't you ask Ming if he considers such to be discussing the issue or discussing the poster .

Just because something isnt bannable, or even something a mod needs to discourage, doesnt stop it from being rude. El cid may not be used to that sort of thing.

BTW, it seems to me quite possible that in SOME games better physics just adds to graphics - im thinking of RTS with pretty, realistic waterfalls, that add to nothing but appearance. I presume in action games they add to gameplay, though i presume more in some than others. If IS would give examples of physics adding to gameplay in certain games, and EC would give examples of games where it doesnt, that might be helpful.

[Imran Siddiqui]

it seems to me quite possible that in SOME games better physics just adds to graphics

And yet the slam was in adoption of the physics engine in the first place, that it effects graphics most, completely downplaying the gameplay advances.

FPS games are attempting, as much as possible, to have a more realistic shooting experience. They want the AI to, ideally, be as good as a human player, but they also want the experience to be as realistic as possible, which includes making the physics more realistic (so an updated physics engine does deal with something integral to the game and not simply graphics, and I can't believe that someone can't see that). This does have a discernible impact on the gameplay itself, as you can't do unrealistic maneuvers in order to score a kill. Or, in an RTS, cannon balls fly realistically rather than some exaggerated motion, which, of course, requires a more realistic positioning and effects of artillery.

For an example, Half Life 2 is one that has attempted to add a realistic physics model (Havok physics engine).

[Asher]

im thinking of RTS with pretty, realistic waterfalls, that add to nothing but appearance.

That's not physics...thats animation.