Apolyton conquers the Universe part 7

[Sparrowhawk]

I am more interested in these attacks against a defended planet than against each other (as they are more likely to meet on a defended planet than having 400 HF show up to raid a planet defended only by 40 BB and 400 LF).

Using your numbers I again sim-attacked my main planet and both attacks win (the 40 BB and 400 LF @ 100% and the 400 HF at 100% but the 400 HF have a much lower debris field for the attacker).

I am having trouble seeing why you would attack with Battleships (even screened with Light Fighters) rather than with Heavy Fighters

The main reason I can come up with is the cargo space (100 in HF, 1500 in BB) but even when I add in Large Cargos to make up the difference in cargo space, the HF still wins with a lower debris field (though the LC's take significant losses).

/me

[binTravkin]

Use 4mil resources:

Attacker: 400 HF
Defender: 40 BB, 400 LF

This ends in a draw at tech parity. As I thought, BBs are more effective when screened, even at the cost of fewer BBs. I've only done this one ratio of BBs to LFs - there may be a more ideal ratio where BB/LF trumps pure HF.

Use combined arms with combined arms:

HF 240 -> 85
C 60 -> 37
vs
LF 400 -> 0
BB 40 -> 9

[Sparrowhawk]

While I get your point binTravkin (and read above, I am agreeing with you) your comparison doesn't equal 4 Million in resources (240HF & 60C) nor does it equal the 10:1 ration you recommend above 4:1 instead.

Maybe you could clarify?

/me

[binTravkin]

Also, note that the Cruiser part of the force is very effective against missile launchers (which are an often used cannonfodder in defense).

If you have weapon tech advantage then cruiser rapidfire can really kick in vs LFs and MLs.

[Cyclotron]

That's a fair analysis, but there is one problem:

No attack is against a fleet only - in nearly all cases, a planet with a fleet has planet defenses.

Realistically, a good player should never be defending with a fleet - he should always be fleetsaving.

Thus, virtually no fleet should ever be in a position of combat without defenses playing a part. Defenses tend to be quite beefy - this analysis is incomplete without defenses being tested as well, and I'm not sure how that would turn out.

Secondly, most of us attack for resources. The proponents of BBs often cite the large cargo space as a big plus - cargo ships tend to be the first to go down in an assault. Of course, with a big enough fleet, even espionage probes can come off with quite a haul, but the question remains - are BBs still useful as "armed cargo," so to speak?

[binTravkin]

Maybe you could clarify?

Lemme count my beans again, probably I mistaked.

[Cyclotron]

d'oh, cross post madness.

[binTravkin]

Thus, virtually no fleet should ever be in a position of combat without defenses playing a part. Defenses tend to be quite beefy - this analysis is incomplete without defenses being tested as well, and I'm not sure how that would turn out.

I tested it against defenses, just not so extensively.
Sparrowhawk just did it too, see what he's saying.
You can try it out too.

And don't try to compare equal resources on defenses vs equal resources on attack, try compare the same resources vested in HF versus BB.

[binTravkin]

While I get your point binTravkin (and read above, I am agreeing with you) your comparison doesn't equal 4 Million in resources (240HF & 60C) nor does it equal the 10:1 ration you recommend above 4:1 instead.

1.It does equal 4M, it's just rounded up by one cruiser:
240HF * 10 = 2.4M
60C * 27 = 1.62M
2.4 + 1.62 = 4.02

Note I don't count deuterium, because it's requirement is ridiculous (60 * 2 = 120k) compared to full resource requirement and therefore easy enough to get.

2.
As I said 'to battle the BB fleets around' the best combination seems something around 10:1, BUT in this particular case you must see the fleet consisting of two parts of ships - LFs and BBs against which you put an equal (in resources) amount of Cruisers and HFs respectively therefore getting the ratio.
Be flexible vs content.

Another example:
P.crach is running around with 444 BB fleet.
Take 444 * 60 / 10 = 2664HFs and battle result is:

0 BBs left
1034 HFs left (almost half of the force!)

The armoured cargo point is valid yes, but there's one thing not taken into account - when you attack you usually attack with superior forces yielding you much better kill:loss ratio, therefore you can afford building LCs for a very little resource amount (each LC is worth 25 BBs in cargo and if you outnumber only every second would get downed at worst).
Furthermore valid seeing the superior HF vs defenses ratio (over BB vs defenses).

For example

444BBs vs 3000SLs = Draw, 341BBs left, 735SLs left
2664HFs vs 3000SLs = Win, 2494HFs left, 0SLs left

Add 10 large cargos and all of them will survive.

[Chaunk]

In a little over two hours, I'll be able to produce my first small cargo ship (Many thanks to bT for the res!). Could someone do a few scans for suitable targets for it please?

[Sparrowhawk]

Agree on every point but the one about the 120K Deuterium being negligible. I think to acurately compare you need to include total resources (as I did).

But it wouldn't make much difference to the end result and I think you have made your point

/me

[binTravkin]

Thanks Sparrow, I was just wondering is this another game of 'most of the best units' kind (which would suck IMO), but turned out it's not!

And this is only a special counter BB and counter BB+LF (as fodder) tactic.
There are other viable ones in other situations.
I have some ideas on Bombers as well, but need to test them out (and it's so far up the tech tree).

Also, has anyone of you tested something like this:

1024 SLs
256 Gauss
128 Plasma
1 Small Dome
1 Large Dome
1 Death Star

As a defensive combination it can win over any fleet currently roaming our universe, Im just not sure about the resource comparation (although seems pretty cheap compared to say 700 BBs).

[Kataphraktoi]

there are more important things than optimal combat fleets...

not heading for Bships,although i have had access to hyperengines for a day or two now.got 8 fleets and starting raids out of colonies,and researching lvl7 esp(and then lvl8) i cant support bships i realized anyway,off the bat without more auxilary units

im smashing this guy called rascist in my system today,just sent 32 cruisers+60Lfighters to wap a colony.expected gains=150k+ and some fun(no losses projected)(for me )

[binTravkin]

there are more important things than optimal combat fleets...

Sure there are, but once you come up to fighting top notch players, every mistake they make should be used in your favour (and I think many people are overestimating BBs or are simply being lazy - it's tad easier to manage a monogenous chunk of ships than a combined arms fleet).

[Chaunk]

The attacker has won the battle!
He captures
1666 Metal, 1666 Crystal and 1666 Deuterium

Woot!