FG: Go 12:"Even Older School Revisited"

[Ljube]

Round 17


Danz sent a spy this time preventing Colony I from training a spy of its own.

Next update on Wednesday around midnight.

[Spaced Cowboy]

My this is quite frustrating.

[snoopy369]

I told you we could skip this part if you want via queue Skip to the part where you try to make an OOB that kylles us with double your fleet size

[Spaced Cowboy]

New rule proposal.

You can build an anti-spy and that cannot be sabotaged by another player's spy mission. Ahem... for next game, I mean.

And sent.

[snoopy369]

Jag and I were talking about that the other day. I disagree however; not only does it set a bad precedent making a non-spyable option, but it makes anti-spy be used too much.

To be honest, all of us three used antispy way too much in my opinion this game. Remember, antispy is in the game FOR ONLY ONE REASON ... to prevent this sort of thing (what's happening right now) from happening. You used your antispies earlier, in circumstances which you considered important ... but didn't save one for the final round. Such is life - you made that decision, same as probably half the players in this game (to use early antispies); I suspect in part due to a couple of earlier instances where it hurt players in important battles not to antispy.

I suspect next round, everyone will save at least one antispy, if not two, for the end game. Who knows If we're going to make it buildable though, we need to cut down on the starting AS's by at least one; and then we'd have to actually build them, which wouldn't really happen. I really don't like making antispy unspyable; that basically doubles its value (giving you TWO spykilling rounds) and makes it worth two spies, which is too much.

[joncha]

Yes, this kind of sleaze is why counterspy was made in the first place. Clearly it is insufficient.

I'd go for them being buildable, unspyable, 2 maximum, with none to start.

[snoopy369]

I doubt that'll help. As I stated above, antispy buildable will just make it worse, as nobody will build them, and making them unspyable when built means they're too valuable.

Overreacting to a single round's happenings is not appropriate. Let this sort itself out. Next round, nobody'll use more than 1 or 2 antispies, and this won't happen again. This is just punishment for overusing antispies earlier on.

[Ljube]

This is punishment for using them at all. I created them and never intended them to become a device to protect your attacking orders. They only serve to prevent spy-deadlocks.

I reduced their number to 2 for this game to prevent their over-use.

It's best if they are kept for the endgame. You can use them up earlier, but it's your fault if you do.


And since I have all orders, I'll just update.

[Ljube]

I made several mistakes in my previous update. Snoopy has 81 BPs and Spaced Cowboy has 100 BPs.

[Ljube]

Round 18


Colony I tried to build a shield generator and Polly Siffan sent a spy who stopped it.

Deadline is still Wednesday evening.

[joncha]

This crap is far worse than any problems buildable counterspies would cause. It's an exploit, plain and simple.

[snoopy369]

Huh? That's why we have counterspies. They exist to prevent this; Spaced chose to risk this happening to protect his earlier attacks. That's all there is to it. This is not an exploit; Whoha and I are using the game rules to our advantage, just as you could in sending a spy or attacking with maneuvered lasers close in. Had spaced been my ally earlier rather than whoha, I'd have had a harder choice; but we joined forces later than whoha and I, so my choice was simple. This of course is the only solution that gives me a chance, albeit not a whole lot of one. And don't forget, this all came because Spaced chose to hold too much fleet behind in his first (Antispied) attack on me ... though I got amazingly lucky, I'll admit that.

Strategy is all about tradeoffs. Making the decision between something that helps you in the short run or something that helps you in the long run. That's why I love counterspies the way they are now. You can use them early on, and risk getting into this situation; or use them later, and risk being spied earlier.

Otherwise I'd be all for eliminating them altogether... Just preventing spy build+use at the same time would do well enough.

[joncha]

Spies cannot be built and used in the same turn as it is (if that's what's happening, several turns need to be rolled back!). I thought what your were doing was trading off between yourself and Whoha as to who builds a spy and who uses one in order to get around the rule. That is an exploit.

As for the "strategic use" of counterspy, the only reason they were created in the first place was to prevent this exact situation from happening. If they can't do that, I say scrap 'em.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Otherwise I'd be all for eliminating them altogether... Just preventing spy build+use at the same time would do well enough.

That's already prevented.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by joncha
As for the "strategic use" of counterspy, the only reason they were created in the first place was to prevent this exact situation from happening. If they can't do that, I say scrap 'em.

They can do that. You just need to keep them till you really need them. But it's eventually your choice.

And you are all vocal about this in spite of the fact you used this exploit first.