FG: Nascar IX: Pit Stop Part II

[vovan]

Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy
Yes, I agree, he should have been able to stay on this turn and went off next turn, or took his luck with the oil, either way his spped would have taken him further off the track, resulting in a larger penalty than he got this turn.

I was going to suggest that his first move for the next turn should be an L to get the NE heading. He is free and clear at this point and it will be hard to catch him.

Spaced, actually, trying my luck on oil is what I was originally intending to do. However, then I realized that if you go off track, you get put back facing in the same direction the track is going, and therefore, I had the option of either trying the oil, or going off track either on the previous or this turn. The latter would have resulted in a far larger penalty. So, now, put yourself in my shoes. Would you choose an inferior option when a win is at stake? I doubt it.

Now, rah did warn me that the rule is such that the driver must do his best to stay on track, otherwise the penalty is at the discretion of the GM. Given the fact that I was going off no matter what, and I chose the superior place to go off, I'd say I did precisely that - tried my best to stay on track - so stricktly speaking, I do not believe I should have been subject to any penalty from rah on this turn past the normal damage to the car, even subtracting the one WC.

Of course, if you feel like a crybaby, and believe your only chance for a win is to cripple my car further by invoking vague rules, then I'll ask rah to bump my top speed down another notch or two, just so we all get along and keep on racin'.

[rah]

I don't think anybody has been a "crybaby" and we probably shouldn't be resorting to use that term. He questioned what the rule was since they have relied heavily on judgement by the GM. And since you and I personally discussed the rule, it is obvious that it isn't set in stone. Judgement is required. And I appreciated these discussions because I want to know a better way to handle it in the future.

[vovan]

Sorry, rah, and Spaced, I guess I should have added more smileys than one. I really didn't mean it in the offensive way, but more as sort of friendly taunting.

I was serious about further penalties though. If people believe I gained unfair advantage by making the move I did, feel free to say so.

[rah]

Thank you. Yeah a few more smiley's would have helped.

And a very sporting offer. Let's see what people say.
I probably won't get a chance to update till tomorrow.

[snoopy369]

My two cents - I think that vovan did the right thing, and that is not the problem.

The problem is the penalty for going off at all is far, far too light.

In a real NASCAR race, if you go careening into the wall, you:

a) glance the wall, slightly slow down, and bounce a bit away from it (angle of incidence <10º)
b) glance the wall, bounce away from it, losing some speed and probably damaging your front side (angle of incidence <20º). You may hit the wall again, depending on your driving angle and the bounce.
c) smash into it, doing a decent bit of damage to your car, causing you to turn substantially away from the wall, or into it, seemingly at random, losing most or all of your speed and generally spinning out.

I'd think the penalty should be more than just 1 speed decrease, even for only 1 spot off of the wall (or off of the track). If it's actually a 'road track' and there's no defined wall, but rather a grassy area etc., you lose a lot more than one speed (1/10 of your total speed) going off into it ...

I'm not sure what exactly it should be - but I certainly think that hitting the wall should be a much more serious penalty than it seems to be. Otherwise it is too easily taken advantage of (not that I'm saying it was here, vovan's quite honest imo, just that it could be in general)...

[snoopy369]

Seperately, though, I definitely support the penalty of a wildcard in this instance. Vovan COULD have braked twice, trying to prevent the collision or at least making it not as bad, and didn't; perhaps that should be a requirement (that if you are going to go off the track, you must brake as much as possible, ie twice, and turn away from the wall as much as possible, ie twice, if you have the WCs to do it).

I'd also wonder, if the way you word the penalty should be reworded. Vovan only went off the track by one *this turn*, but would have gone off by more than that, if I understand how it works, next turn. Thus, by choosing to go off this turn, when he didn't have to, isn't he getting a lesser penalty than he ought to have, had he gone off next turn? I don't object to going off at a favorable position, but if it's to avoid a greater penalty, I think that may be an issue.

[rah]

Still waiting on orders.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Rah,
I'm at speed 5.

What I'm trying to say is that if I'd known the penalty was soo light and have gotten and extra L turn, I'd would have done the same thing.

My personal thought is that you went into the turn knowing that you would not be able to make the turn at that speed and knowing that you'd go off the track. Whereas,

I slowed down for the turn.

Lastly, trust me that it is only a game and you found the loophole before I did...just pointing out that it is a loophole, and I'm too busy on a business trip to redo my orders to take advantage of it.

It is something that can be exploited and needs to be fixed.,

[rah]

That's why we're having the discussion, because you have to balance intent. If someone screws up you don't want to penalize them twice, but if someone is trying to take advantage of it you do.

Since he could have made the turn if he was paying attention, I had to assume that it wasn't intentional but his recovery did take advantage, but he was still penalized for going off, just not as bad. SO I did a light punishment, but I was fearful that it would encourage others. Based on your comments it did. But your's would be premeditated and would have to be punished harder. Quite the dilema for the GM.

I can't just say harsher on max speed or even current speed because those with max speeds in the 20's wouldn't care so just losing speed could still be more beneficial than slowing down for multiple turns.

I will have to give this some thought,

But for the time being, I will assess an additional penalty on VOVAN. After he made his original error we did discuss other moves for him that would have led to more damage. He saw the solution that he used before i did.

So in the terms of fairness here, I am reducing his max speed by an additional 1 and removing his last WC.

This damage and use of WCs is almost consistent if he had used different options that we discusses.

While some may feel that this is not enough, based on the options that VOVAN and I discussed prior to this move, it is about what would have happened.

I do not want to over penalize in this situation, but will for others that intentionally try to take advantage.
I know how to adjust future tracks so this can't happen.
But we will need some further discussion.

I believe that VOVAN will not have a problem with the additional penalty, since fairness and sportsmanship has been a big issue in all of our discussions.

But If I judged improperly. I'm sure I'll hear about it.

As soon as vovan sends orders I'll update. Even though I dropped his max, I'm not taking away his 12th space this turn, he can brake to start his next turn.

[vovan]

Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy
My personal thought is that you went into the turn knowing that you would not be able to make the turn at that speed and knowing that you'd go off the track.

Spaced, think about it. Why would I chose to go off track and lose one top speed, where I could easily have avoided it by making one extra turn the turn before, and have gone through the whole turn without ever slowing down at all. I made a mistake, and hurt myself.

I agree that the rules should be modified for the next race though on this topic.

Orders Sent

[vovan]

Oops, rah, I didn't see your post before sending orders. Add a B at the end of my orders please.

[gjramsey]

Originally posted by rah

I do not want to over penalize in this situation, but will for others that intentionally try to take advantage.

oh man, this totally ruins my plans for this lap.

[rah]

[rah]

TURN 38

                          *******
                         *********   
                         ****   ***
                          ***    ***
                         ***     ***
                        ***      ***  
                       ***       *** 
                      *O*        **O  
                     ***         *O* 
                    O**          *** 
                    ***          *** 
                    ***          *** 
                    ***          **O*   
                    **O           ****
                    ***            **** 
                    ***             ****
                    ***              ==== end alley  
                    ***               *xx* 16 
                    ***                *Sx* 15 
                  *******               *SxS 14 
                  *******                *SSx 13 
                  *******                 *xSx 12 
                  *******                  SSxS 11 
                  *******                   xSSx 10
                  *******                    SSxS 9 
                  ********                    SxSx 8 
                  *********                    xSSS 7  
                  **********                    SxSS 6 
                  ******* ***                    SSxS 5
                  *******  **                     xSSx 4 
                  *******  ##-speed limit          SSxS 3   
                  *******  **     6                 SSSx 2
                  *******  **                        xSSx 1 
                  *******  **                         ====  start
                  *******  **                     ***O****   sandtrap
                  *******  PP-pit stop           ********     alley
                  *******  **  marker           ********   
      finish line =======  **                  ***  
                  *******  **                 ***
                  *******  **                *** 
                  *******  2*               7** 
                  ***5***  ##-end limit    **O 
                  ******* ***             ***    
                  **********        *********
                  *********        ********* 
                  *****4**        ********* 
                  **3****        *** 
                  ******        *** 
                  *****        ***
                  ****        *O*
                  ****       *** 
                  ****      ***
                   ***     *** 
                    ***     ***
                     ***     ***
                      ***     **O
                       O**     ***
                        ***     ***
                         *O*    ***
                          **** ***6
                           ****1**
                            *****


MAX=Max speed
Cust=Sway(S) or Turbo(T) or Performance (P)

CAR   DRIVER           DIRECTION  SPEED  WC    MAX  CUST  ORDERS
***   *************       ***      ***   **     **  ****  **********
 1.   Spaced Cowboy         E       4     3     20  turb  MMLMMB 
 2.   Kassiopeia            S       6     2     20  turb  RL(4M)
 3.   Sparrowhawk           S       9     4      9  perf  M9
 4.   gjramsey              S       7     2     21  turb  MR(M3)AA
 5.   Tuberski              S      12     3     12  sway  AMMMMMMMMMMMM
 6.   Jonny                NE       9     4     13  sway  (m3)L(m2)L(m1)A
 7.   Vovan                NE      11     0     11  sway  (4M)R(2M)L(4M)B

After much discussion Vovan has no WCs left and a max speed of 11.

Vovan extends his lead, but still time for others to catch up.
Jonny moves ahead of Spaced.
And our other four contestents are bunching up but the TUBER has the speed.
Now accepting orders for turn 39.

[gjramsey]

submitted