FG: Galactic Overlord VI: Resistance is futile - Part 2

[Sparrowhawk]

Lets just say given the choices I opted for him being more likely to honour an agreement then you were. Lesser of two evils I thought...and perhaps I was mistaken, maybe neither of you was likely to honour an agreement.

It would have been interesting if Spaced and I had attacked you without Spike on the turn you attacked Spaced (and we talked about it but agreed to wait one more turn ). We would have taken out your defenseless bases, you would have taken his, neither of you would have been able to build ships, not sure if we could have worked out an allied assault on Spike at that point or not, but it would have made for a different finish at least.

[DrSpike]

On a more serious note I treat my allies fairly. After my brief alliance with Theben I asked him how he wanted to proceed. I got no response, so naturally assumed the worst.

After allying with Sparrow and SC I had numerous chances to betray them, including a golden opportunity when we arranged the allied attack on Theben. Naturally I declined this opportunity. Sparrow was already becoming a difficult ally by claiming (I thought at the time for strategic reasons, but now I do wonder if it was just a mistake) I should get no bases after a successful attack on Theben, even though the Sparrow/SC axis had by far the upper hand in terms of fleet size and BP/turn under such an agreement.

After a few turns of no communication I decided to break the deadlock by attacking SC. I would not have done this if the alliance still had open communication. Sparrow then proposed the attack on Theben again with an unfair base split proposal. He also robbed me of the chance to bargain or discuss the split, so yes, I agreed and then took half of the bases myself.

Both attacks on Theben were with a spy contributed by me. I attacked with most ships both times. Personally I think I deserve at least 50% of the bases.

[Theben]

Originally posted by DrSpike
On a more serious note I treat my allies fairly. After my brief alliance with Theben I asked him how he wanted to proceed. I got no response, so naturally assumed the worst.

Ah, yes but had I agreed to anything you were in an excellent position to betray me and could deny all knowledge of an agreement, knowing that no one would believe me or care, and would have essentially won the game at that point.

Lets just say given the choices I opted for him being more likely to honour an agreement then you were. Lesser of two evils I thought...and perhaps I was mistaken, maybe neither of you was likely to honour an agreement.

Not at all... I was 100% completely loyal to the alliance until the conversation turned towards what to do after Spike was destroyed- that Spaced would retire gifting half of his bases to me and the other half to Sparrow. The 'joint win' option would have meant me in reality surrendering to Sparrow, being over 100 tons behind Sparrow in strength. While it is possible I might have opted for that, after doing some research on the Kazon and Trabe (I don't watch Star Trek much anymore) I decided that would never happen. The fleet sizes at the time would have meant a low chance of victory if we fought. Announcing my intentions to split from the alliance would've made them even less likely. Feeling betrayed myself, I hatched my plan. Anyone desiring to win would've done the same.

Had the enemy attacked your bases instead of mine, leaving me in the lead, or had you decided to again join forces with me, I would have remained loyal, since I would have been the more powerful of the two.

[Sparrowhawk]

And if we had elimated DrSpike and left the two of us, I would have been happy with either Spaced working with you to ensure that the fleets were even, and a winner take all or with Spaced retiring, gifting half of his bases to each of us, and having you and I decide the game either with me attacking you with an equal number of ships, or not attacking until you built up your fleet to ensure an equal attack. Either way the better OoB would have decided the game, the way you opted betrayed your alliance and instead of one enemy in a four player game gave you three enemies. I don't think you improved your chances of victory by betraying the alliance. I would have remained true to the alliance to the end (and I did repeatedly in this game even when it would have been more beneficial for me to go my own way......and that is my biggest mistake, and not one I am likely to make again, unless it is to benefit people who I know will remain loyal to the end of the game).

As for Spike, I will happily explain my strategy once the game is complete (and if Ljube appears anytime soon, that could be quite soon). I prefer not to until the game is over however.

/me

[Theben]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
the way you opted betrayed your alliance and instead of one enemy in a four player game gave you three enemies. I don't think you improved your chances of victory by betraying the alliance.

Well, it didn't quite work out how I planned. I didn't think you'd ask about the 'spy' so quickly, nor did I think Ljube would reply so quickly. You weren't supposed to be aware of my 'betrayal'. And although I think in reality you are innocent, I'm still not convinced that the 'saboteur' we were all concerned about early on wasn't Spaced deliberately screwing up his 'allied' orders, so that the rest of us would take the brunt of the damage. It's actually a brilliant way to betray your allies and play innocent.

Then again, if you were supposed to send all of your fleet against me and didn't, how is that different in principle from what I did?

[Sparrowhawk]

I hope Ljube will clear up the issue of the early game "sabateur" as I honestly don't know what happened and if it was intentional by someone or accidental by all of us.

As for my attacking with DrSpike, I think there are two important differences:
- DrSpike and I were not "allied" as you, Spaced, Geo and I were allied, we just united to eliminate a common enemy
- I agreed to send the majority of my fleet against you (and while just over 50% may not be much of a majority, it still is by any definition of the word I know Deceptive perhaps as I was playing with words, but I didn't go against my word, which is a key point in my books). Actually I think I took a considerable risk in leaving half my fleet at home as if you had attacked me, they would have been destroyed leaving me in an even more vulnerable position....I did so on the assumption that destroyed ships would be removed in an equal ratio to the ships sent, and that this was one of my only chances to catch up with DrSpike once you were gone. It seems my assumption was wrong, and had I known this, I would have likely committed a much more considerable portion of my fleet (which would have been a moot point regardless, as while it may have saved 7 Titans for each of DrSpike and I, it would not have helped with my difficency in tonnage).

(my second way of catching up with DrSpike was the base split, but as he still outbuilds me, no matter how long I last in this game, I cannot catch up with him any more then I am now)

One last point is that in any of my earlier discussions with DrSpike, we tried to work out a base split and a number of ships to commit to it, and I had told him I would only commit the majority of my ships on the condition that he send a spy, and while he did send a spy this time, we did not discuss it, so I had no way of knowing that a spy was keeping you at home, necessitating the use of a defensive fleet (and I secretly hoped he would not use a spy, that you would attack DrSpike, and that both of you would be left with no self built bases, which would result in a good chance for me to catch up).

/me who talks too much

[Theben]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
- DrSpike and I were not "allied" as you, Spaced, Geo and I were allied, we just united to eliminate a common enemy

In reality there is no difference.

(my second way of catching up with DrSpike was the base split, but as he still outbuilds me, no matter how long I last in this game, I cannot catch up with him any more then I am now)

Not true. FE, if he had 100 tonnes, and you had 50, and you both had 50 BP/turn builds you'd have:
2 : 1 1st turn
3 : 2 2nd turn
4 : 3 3rd, etc.

You'll never catch up but you'll improve your odds somewhat.

See, this is why you guys needed me. Can't plan worth crap.

One last point is that in any of my earlier discussions with DrSpike, we tried to work out a base split and a number of ships to commit to it, and I had told him I would only commit the majority of my ships on the condition that he send a spy, and while he did send a spy this time, we did not discuss it, so I had no way of knowing that a spy was keeping you at home, necessitating the use of a defensive fleet (and I secretly hoped he would not use a spy, that you would attack DrSpike, and that both of you would be left with no self built bases, which would result in a good chance for me to catch up).

I had launched my entire fleet against DrSpike, except one torp cruiser.

[GeoModder]

I'm curious as well to know why some of the earlier assaults failed, and hope to have some clarification as well...

Spikie, I sure will remember you as a future possible ally.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
- I agreed to send the majority of my fleet against you (and while just over 50% may not be much of a majority, it still is by any definition of the word I know Deceptive perhaps as I was playing with words, but I didn't go against my word, which is a key point in my books).

Ah, well then you shouldn't have had any problem with me, since I agreed to attack DrSpike, but didn't say how many ships I would send. Obviously I sent an "attack" since you two were following my OoB. See, I didn't go against my word.

[Sparrowhawk]

that isn't even worth a response

[Theben]

'cuz you can't

[Ljube]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
Okay, betrayed by Theben first and DrSpike second. I will have to remember that in future forum games

Second question.....how are the destroyed ships distributed between the players in an allied attack?
DrSpike sent considerably more ships then I did (both because he had more to send and he sent a higher percentage of his fleet), yet we each lost 7 Titans (Fighter). So to clarify, in an allied attack where ships are the same size (in this case Titans) regardless of the proportion of the ships in the attack, the losses are distributed evenly? (or to use a more extreme example, if DrSpike had sent 50 Titans and I had sent 2, and we lost 4 ships, both of mine would have been destroyed and 2 of his?). While propotioning out the losses seems more difficult, it also seems more fair to me. Has this never come up in previous games?

* Sparrowhawk

The losses are distributed evenly among the allies, like the bases.

I remove ships starting with the ally who sent his orders first, so it is possible that the one who receives an extra base also takes a few points of extra damage or loses one ship more than his ally.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
I hope Ljube will clear up the issue of the early game "sabateur" as I honestly don't know what happened and if it was intentional by someone or accidental by all of us.

What happened is you attacked and Theben didn't. No spies from either side were involved.

[Ljube]

Round 19 - Tension


Tension between the Dominion and the Trabe is rising. Founder DrSpike has ordered rebel leader Sparrowhawk be found and executed. But Sparrowhawk is hiding.

 
Player Name
 
Bases
 
BPs
 
Tonnage
 
Frigates(1)
 
Cruisers(2)
 
Battleships(3)
 
Dreadnaughts(4)
 
Titans(5)
 



 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 



DrSpike
 
5(25)
 
195
 
100/120[2]/150
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
11
 
20
 
24[2]
 
20
 



Sparrowhawk
 
5(24)
 
76
 
98/125/150
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
19
 
25
 
30
 

I will be able to process turns daily now, so I'm reducing the turn to 24-hours. Please send your orders before tomorrow this time.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko

What happened is you attacked and Theben didn't. No spies from either side were involved.

They meant earlier in the game, when attacking Kassi.