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  • #61
    I've played a few games as drakes against elves today and have come to the conclusion that elves are the best race, while drakes are the worst.


    Seriously, some things to consider:



    Elves:

    Almost every unit has a ranged attack

    Very good defense in most terrain, and especially forest.

    A scout unit that moves 9 spaces (fastest in the game?) and can go through forest with no movement penalty.

    Woses which are a mega-powerful melee unit and also capable of ambush an regeneration. (Granted, they are slow and weak to fire and have no ranged attack, but it seems odd to stick such a powerful melee unit in with the same race that has the best archers.)

    Mermen, a very powerful melee unit for water.

    Druids, capable of both slowing enemies and healing comrades.

    ...

    Do they have any downsides?

    They aren't the strongest melee fighters, but that's about it.



    Drakes:

    Most units have a very powerful ranged attack.

    Many units that can fly over all terrain at no penalty.

    A melee unit that has the choice of a blade or pierce attack.

    A mage that not only has a magical cold attack but also a fire breath attack and a mediocre melee attack.

    ...

    Their downsides?

    Extremely poor defense, with the highest bonus possible being 40% for most units.

    Their units cost a large amount, almost double that of most other races.

    The few regular-priced units they have lack any ranged attacks and have only average melee abilities.

    The mages can strangely not fly over water, tundra, or swamp, despite being able to fly over everything else.



    How do the two compare in combat?


    For starters, something that I found incredibly annoying was that to be equal in defense with an elf I had to be in my most prefered terrain (hills & mountains) while the elf had to be in one of his least prefered (grasslands) this puts us both at 40% defense. If the elf moved onto the hills (which is supposedly the drake's prefered terrain) he actually has a higher defense value than me at 50%

    Extremely frustrating.



    But, you say, you can fly! you can out manouvere the elves and force them to play by your rules! This is true in mountains but, again, the elves actually have a higher defense than you do in mountains and hills so it becomes preferable to "hold the line" at the edge of the mountains rather than leading them around and engaging them at will, as you would think you should do.

    But what about water, you say? Yes, I thought this would be the ideal scenario. Being able to fly out into the ocean for sanctuary or to outflank the opponent. Only... they have mermen. Fighting mermen in the water is almost as bad - perhaps even worse - than fighting elves in the forest. They do massive amounts of piercing damage (which drakes are susceptable to) and have 70%/60% defense bonus for shallow and deep water respectively, while drakes get a whoping 20% and 10%


    And, again, I remind you that the elvish scout units can move at 9 squares (and have no penalties in forest) while the petite drakes can only move 7.

    So, to recap: Despite being able to fly, the drakes can only out-manouver elves in mountains and water. Yet, even in those 'prefered' terrain types, they are still at a disadvantage to the elves in terms of defense even though those are supposed to be the least prefered terrain of the elves.



    What I think should be different about these two races?

    Elves:

    Reduce the speed of the scout to 7

    Lower their defense in hills to 30% and in mountains to 20% (They've got to have some terrain that they're no good in._

    Remove the merman and perhaps replace it with a flying unit.

    Drakes:

    Raise the defense in shallow/deep water to 30/20% and raise the defense in mountains to 60%

    Increase the speed of the petite drake to 8 and the Drake Fighter to 6

    Allow the the mage to fly over water and tundra like all the other flying units. (what's the point of out-manouvering the enemy when you have to leave your mages behind?)
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    • #62
      Originally posted by General Ludd

      I think elves are too powerful. I played a 4 player team game and each team had an elf and a non-elf. Both non-elves (myself as drakes and the other as humans) where completely devastated by the opposing elf.
      I'm not sure about that. Elves are mostly dangerous on maps with lots of forest and thanks to their range attacks. If they have to leave the forest and fight against units that shoot back .They can be quite vulnerable.

      Part of the "Elves are too powerful" may be down to the fact that Wesnoth is still being developed. In that sense Elves are the most 'evolved'. Based on user feedbackI've seen new units/tweaks in many of the releases.
      A 2nd issue is that many players are simply more in tune with the elves because they play a major role in the standard Wesnoth scenario. Learning the skills, strength/weaknesses and abilities of other races only happens when you start to check out the other scenarios or in MP.
      Third is that Elves have a simple basic rule: stay in the forest. this isn't so clear wtih the other races. In that sense Elves always know what to do*. Orcs and humans have a far larger selection of units at the start. And learning where a unit is best used takes time.

      Final advice: Live, learn and give feedback to the developers

      P.S
      Yes, I think the Drakes are a weak race as well.

      *This is also their weakspot
      Last edited by CapTVK; June 27, 2004, 13:27.
      Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

      Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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      • #63
        Drakes are EXTREMELY bad against undead because undead have many cold attacks... and drakes are weak to cold.

        Anyone want a game?
        I changed my signature

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Gamecube64
          Drakes are EXTREMELY bad against undead because undead have many cold attacks... and drakes are weak to cold.

          Anyone want a game?
          But on the flip side drakes have many fire attacks and undead are weak to fire.
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          • #65
            Aren't undead not as weak against fire as drakes are to cold?
            I changed my signature

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            • #66
              They aren't, but the fire attacks are typically more powerful than the cold attacks are.
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              • #67
                News moves fast in the realm of Wesnoth. 0.7.11 is out. If all goes well this will be the next stable release (0.8)

                Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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                • #68
                  Well General Ludd and I finally met in battle. and this round is for him. He made good use of his undead flying units flying over mountains and occupying villages. tying down units. I needed the troops to go on the offensive, and not try and hold villages in my hinterland. I knew had to do something but my offensive in the center failed and was easily crushed. Cheap units don't make for a good offensive...


                  Spoiler:

                  Cheap human units (javelins) fights rather badly against undead during the night. So watch the clock!

                  Skirmishers are weak 1-on-1 but can be very effective when applied correctly.
                  Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                  Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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                  • #69
                    Yeah, skirmishers are deffinately a very valuable unit. They're quick, ignore zone of control, and have good defense. Good for out flanking, and depending on the terrain, they would be excellent at doing what I did with my flying units that battle. (occupying towns behind enemy lines and tying up or slowing down units)

                    I'm surprised you didn't make more heavy infantry, though. They do a ton of impact damage and skeletons are extremely weak to that. They just have to watch out for the adepts, since they are weak to cold.


                    EDIT: Then again, since heavy infantry are so slow they may of been a poor choice for that battle after all, with the way I was fighting.
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by General Ludd
                      Yeah, skirmishers are deffinately a very valuable unit. They're quick, ignore zone of control, and have good defense. Good for out flanking, and depending on the terrain, they would be excellent at doing what I did with my flying units that battle. (occupying towns behind enemy lines and tying up or slowing down units)

                      I'm surprised you didn't make more heavy infantry, though. They do a ton of impact damage and skeletons are extremely weak to that. They just have to watch out for the adepts, since they are weak to cold.


                      EDIT: Then again, since heavy infantry are so slow they may of been a poor choice for that battle after all, with the way I was fighting.

                      The reason that heavy infantry units are so effective against the undead is because of their impact weapons. cheaper human units have spearweapons. I retrospect archers are probably more effective against undead their spearmen. The problem is that heavy infantry are, indeed, very slow. I would have needed to buy them right at the start but i didn't know you had the undead until later in the game.


                      P.S
                      It took four turns to get my heavy infantry near the battlefield.
                      Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                      Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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                      • #71
                        Wesnoth Quote of the Day:


                        GET SOME GLASSES FOR THOSE DRAKES!

                        General Ludd during the battle at dragons breath bridge


                        Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                        Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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                        • #72
                          Yeah, 4 drakes all missed a adept they could have killed in one hit.

                          But when it was the adept's turn he missed with his magic attack (always 70%) and a one hp drake killed him awsome.
                          I changed my signature

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                          • #73
                            That was indeed an epic game... although, unfortunetly, it didn't end.


                            You pretty much saw the end of it. After repeated reloading it was decided to call the game a draw.

                            Specifically, right after Gamecube and I played a good turn and basically ensured the death of the red lich and survival of the drake commander - it crashed. We reloaded, and it played out completely the opposite way the next time. I can't help but suspect that "crash" was deliberate but, whatever, I'm probably just paranoid.



                            And the saves don't show a replay from start to finish, by the way. They only go from the last time it loaded.


                            EDIT: And man am I burned out now. Completely drained. Can barely think straight. Man, it's like my days of starcraft addiction all over gain.

                            That game went on for over five hours!
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                            • #74
                              Here's all my saves from that game... if you play them one after another you can probably get a more or less complete replay. Although there might be a hole here or there.

                              You get to see all the team banter that you where left out on, too ... but only ours. I'd like to be able to see what our enemies where saying.
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                              • #75
                                Impressive game Ludd, you and gamecube64 took the initiative and maintained all the game. Apart from the "one more turn"- syndrome it also has the "I need to know how it's going!"- syndrome. I kept checking!

                                GC64 easily countered his bat attacks in the north. Meanwhile your surprise raids with bats in the south and drakes in the north caused plenty of consternation for the other side. Although in my view (an obeserver sees all )it didn't do much to the alter the main battle at the bridge. Still it was a nuisance for your opponents. It was touch and go against his heavy infantry, undead archers and adepts. Nonetheless you kept up the pressure. Despite your longer lines of supply, you broke thru in the end.

                                Too bad you couldn't finish of the game in style. did the other players yield in the end?



                                Does it amount to anything in the end? Let's see...
                                • You and GC64 earned yourself quite a reputation with that battle. We had a lot of observers in the end.
                                • Found a couple of juicy bugs related to loading savegames in MP (double login, race change and some potential weak spots when dropping out)
                                • And a wishlist for new MP features like booting out irritating observers
                                • Everyone had a lot of fun



                                Take a few days off from Westnoth. You earned it
                                Last edited by CapTVK; June 30, 2004, 03:37.
                                Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                                Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

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