DESIGN: Wonders

[Maquiladora]

We may aswell. That's how it should work.

First we need to conclude any changes in the wonder thread, then I'll attach a wonders.txt with all the changes in it.

edit: forgot this IS the wonder thread

[Ekmek]

I love it when code works

so should we make it a permanent change?

[Maquiladora]

OK I just tested it. I Added Hagia Sofia with the scenario editior and it added the Shrine. Then I removed Hagia Sofia with scenario editor and it left the Shrine. So i think it works fine.

[Ekmek]

I checked the code. Not in 632 but in 707 and later there is this code:

	sint32 buildingIndex;
	if(wrec->GetBuildingEverywhereIndex(buildingIndex)) {
		m_wonderBuildings |= ((uint64)1 << buildingIndex);
	}
//EMOD to actually create the wonder building

	sint32 abuildingIndex;
	if(wrec->GetActualBuildingEverywhereIndex(abuildingIndex)) {
		for(i = 0; i < m_all_cities->Num(); i++) {
			if (!m_all_cities->Access(i).GetData()->GetCityData()->HaveImprovement(abuildingIndex)) {
				m_all_cities->Access(i).GetData()->GetCityData()->AddImprovement(abuildingIndex);
			}
		}
	}
//end EMOD

So Maq if you are up for it could you test this?

To do so change the wonder that has the 'BuildingEverywhere' and change the flag to
'ActualBuildingEverywhere' just add Actual in front of it.

If it works I think we should make that a standard change in Wonders.txt since people always ask about that.

if it doesn't work I think I know where I need to fix it. thanks

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by LemurMadness

Obsoleting Wonders, well, CTP1 did had wonder obsoletion, CTP2 doesn't?

CtP2 has some wonders obsoleted, but ones that aren't ever obsoleted (or obsoleted for a long time) risk being too powerful.

Can Wonders be obsoleted throught a period of time, instead of advances? Sounds more reasonable, like the bonus of Advance Reached (Concrete +5%) / # of Buildings Constructed of Same Type (Theaters).

I guess thats a good idea aswell, but advance obsoleting is fairly consistant anyway. Plus there's a reason for it to be obsoleting at a significant advance in the same field, it adds more flavour than obsoleting at the same turns every game.

i'll look into the actual building code today (hopefully)

as far as a flag should we rename BuidingEverywhere to BuildingEffectEverywhere? then I'd re do the code to BuildingEverywhere to actually make abuilduing Everywhere

It's needless work at the moment IMO, but it's up to you

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by LemurMadness
The Ramayana should be +2, I agree with that, but I'd say Wonders should keep an specific bonus, like the original CTP2 does. Obsoleting Wonders, well, CTP1 did had wonder obsoletion, CTP2 doesn't? Can Wonders be obsoleted throught a period of time, instead of advances?

not sure how to set it to an age, but you can make obsolete with multiple advances. first one will obsolete it

Sounds more reasonable, like the bonus of Advance Reached (Concrete +5%) / # of Buildings Constructed of Same Type (Theaters).

if i understand you right i already did this code. you can set a flag that says you need X number of Building Y before you can build a wonder (or building)

The "Building Everywhere", didn't worked properly last time I checked (Yeah it was about 200 builds ago), and it doesn't seems ok for Civilizations with few cities with high population, so I agree with the "Double Effectiveness of X Buildings".

i'll look into the actual building code today (hopefully)

as far as a flag should we rename BuidingEverywhere to BuildingEffectEverywhere? then I'd re do the code to BuildingEverywhere to actually make abuilduing Everywhere

[HuangShang]

hey thats a good idea, the London Exchange (which we might like to rename to Stock Exchange) is balanced and works out to about the same benefit after a while. Although it might be a more useful wonder to add to older buildings (i.e. for Internet adding to Universities like it did in its very beginnings).

[LemurMadness]

The Ramayana should be +2, I agree with that, but I'd say Wonders should keep an specific bonus, like the original CTP2 does. Obsoleting Wonders, well, CTP1 did had wonder obsoletion, CTP2 doesn't? Can Wonders be obsoleted throught a period of time, instead of advances? Sounds more reasonable, like the bonus of Advance Reached (Concrete +5%) / # of Buildings Constructed of Same Type (Theaters). The "Building Everywhere", didn't worked properly last time I checked (Yeah it was about 200 builds ago), and it doesn't seems ok for Civilizations with few cities with high population, so I agree with the "Double Effectiveness of X Buildings".

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Maquiladora

E, is there currently a way to limit a city to any two wonders only?

excludedbywonder is all I have now. the way the code works now it stores the wonders in an array so I think I can get a buitlwonders->num() code. I'll check it out

[Maquiladora]

I think the reason the AI gets wonder in the Ancient age is because it gets the advances way before you. On Impossible the AI nearly always gets Aristotle's Lyceum and Appian Way, because they often get to Philosophy and Trade respectively first.

Ramayana is about 50/50 as even though the AI always starts with Religion, it takes them quite a few turns to build another city or decide to start wonder building. Whereas I normally go for Ramayana as soon as my 2nd city is built.

Hagia Sofia is another the AI gets against me as I don't go for Theology as early as the AI. Hopefully though with the new advancelists.txt for the AI, it will research a similar path to a human, that covers all strategies. Of course once we balance the governments, we can change the AI advance paths to each of its chosen governments, so it doesn't waste time researching them all.

As you say, as it gets into the Modern it's easy to pick up all wonders, as the AI is either level or behind you on tech. I wonder if the AI gets the warning message for someone else almost finishing a wonder and decides to switch to a new one? If the AI did that, then it would certainly get some wonders, even in the modern age. Just like the human switches wonders earlier in the game.

I wouldn't mind a simple "Space Race" wonder in the early modern. In Civ the Alpha Centauri victory was only about building many things anyway, so why not just have a single wonder that costs a LOT? At least small scientific civs can go for it if it's one big wonder, because you don't need many high production cities building spaceship parts.

The AI would have to be told that endgame buildings are allowed to be longer than standard buildings/wonders, then it could work. Or perhaps just raising MaxWonderBuildTurns in strategies.txt, although this wouldn't be perfect, it would (i assume) guarantee the AI goes for it (and any other wonder) when it's researched.

Of course we also need to have an option to turn it off before the game starts.

[Protra3211]

What about the AI and how it builds wonders.In the early part of the game the AI can win many races for wonders.But as the game reaches the modern age the human player (if you manage your cities right)should be able to win all races for any wonders.Now in some mods the score for wonders is changed to a lower score.Might help to rebalance the game.
But what about a list of wonders the AI can only build in the late part of the game.Like a UN or space race wonder. A wonder that would start a count down(so many turns) that leads to the end of the game.There is a science wonder already in CtP2 that does this .

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by HuangShang
I see what you mean by choosing the right wonders; I agree. Then Gutenberg's Bible should not give happiness.

There is at least one free building wonder not listed, the Sophia (which may be overpowered because it is eternal happiness and lets cities go basilica first).

You're right I forgot that. The only thing that makes me think its slightly less overpowered than say an eternal Ramayana +1 happiness, is that it comes later in the tree, and Shrines can be built by everyone else quite quickly. There's no question though, it's still overpowered.

This means either replacing it with another less effective building (i seriously can't think of one that fits), or giving Hagia Sofia +1 happiness for a limited time like Ramayana. I don't like the idea of copying another wonder though.

Another option (and i think this works best), is to lower the price of the Shrine. First of all its too expensive anyway compared to Theatre, secondly lowering it would give slightly less benefit in production saved. Considering that everyone builds Shrines everywhere anyway, its already a temporary benefit wonder, so the effect wouldn't be that big.

I like that we give the wonders its own, balanced effect instead basing it buildings, but just another idea to consider is that we just give a lesser building, ie. the internet allows you to build computer centers in any city, guaranteed. The great library would have to say that the internet gives all the publishing you ever needed though.

Well it's a good idea to give a lesser building, but it's difficult because often none really fit. Publishing Houses in this case doesn't quite fit either IMO.

Either we give The Internet a straight +10% science bonus, or we could use the "GoldPerBuildingAnywhere" flag for wonders. It could give gold per Computer Center in each city multiplied by population. So a civ of 400 pop (realistic for that time in the game), mutiplied by 20 Computer Centers is an extra 8000 gold per turn, if you have The Internet. That's if i understand it right. Or does it work on a city-by-city basis? Only the city pop that builds a Computer Center counts towards the given gold? That would give less gold and probably be better.

We should use both excludedbywonder and wonder limit. It isn't fun the wonders don't have some geographical identity too. I definitely have never built 3 wonders in the same city and I often would do things like making sure a city's second wonder fits with the existing one. It is more fun.

I wouldn't like to limit the identity of wonders to city styles for example, we're rewriting history afterall, not recreating it. But i agree, building lots of wonders in one city is boring, and it often favours the leading civ to research it first, and throw them all in the same production city.

E, is there currently a way to limit a city to any two wonders only?

[HuangShang]

I see what you mean by choosing the right wonders; I agree. Then Gutenberg's Bible should not give happiness.

There is at least one free building wonder not listed, the Sophia (which may be overpowered because it is eternal happiness and lets cities go basilica first). I like that we give the wonders its own, balanced effect instead basing it buildings, but just another idea to consider is that we just give a lesser building, ie. the internet allows you to build computer centers in any city, guaranteed. The great library would have to say that the internet gives all the publishing you ever needed though.

We should use both excludedbywonder and wonder limit. It isn't fun the wonders don't have some geographical identity too. I definitely have never built 3 wonders in the same city and I often would do things like making sure a city's second wonder fits with the existing one. It is more fun.

[Maquiladora]

E, I would like to prevent no more than any 2 wonders per city, but I think I may be the only one. It makes sense from a realism and gameplay perspective though. How many cities in the world contain more than two wonders of the world, from any civ game?

It also presents the human with a real choice. Can you rely on finding enough production-heavy cities to build all the wonders you want, or do you wait for the ones you really want and only build those in your big production city?

It also spreads them out between each AI, giving the human more strong opponents.

[Ekmek]

don't forget i also have excludedbywonder as a flag. Some wonders shouldnt appear in the same cities as others (like Temple of the Sun and the pyramids I say)

this also prevents the wonder-making super cities which i think is a problem