Announcement

**Ekmek** · June 14, 2006, 18:40

Looks good. I'd say draft a govern.txt (and advance.txt?). Worse case we can now make a scenario with these valus so you can test them out.

I have an Emod that takes the basic game and adds ome of the new futures but also the elephant warrior and legion units anda horse good. I didn't change govt stats so we could incorporate it with that (but I need to update my EMOD though)

**LemurMadness** · June 14, 2006, 19:16

Hmmm... I guess the NameRank stuff at the end of the goverments doesnt reflects the real Goverment output for that given stuff, well, ill try my best, ive already made the changes in my PC back home, but I have some problems adding a new Goverment.

Besides that, Ill need to calculate the total science required for some advances.

Ill grab CTP1's Apolyton Pack and check the Modern Theology Goverment.

**Ekmek** · June 14, 2006, 19:25

Originally posted by LemurMadness
Hmmm... I guess the NameRank stuff at the end of the goverments doesnt reflects the real Goverment output for that given stuff, well, ill try my best, ive already made the changes in my PC back home, but I have some problems adding a new Goverment.

the name rank stuff just tells you in the govt tab whether is good or bad (the green and red letters) when you compare a govt

Go to values like commercepercent etc, its not too bad.

Besides that, Ill need to calculate the total science required for some advances.

that is always a hard part. In civ2 etc its a question of guessing gold and cities.In ctp2 you have to throw that in there plus science pacts etc.

Ill grab CTP1's Apolyton Pack and check the Modern Theology Goverment.

great! Good to see another active modder being born

**HuangShang** · June 15, 2006, 02:29

yea i like most of the suggestions

what r the values for tyranny? mostly 1?

i always thought republic was useless, but now its really an option with the science and production, however, maybe the military should drop to one, or else it is a little too much better

the new facism is perfect, b4 it was more of an introduction to lvl 2 and just too weak

maybe the name shouldnt be new/modern theocracy... there are many viable unused names: socialist republic, (con)federation (not sure what these mean tho)

level 3 and 4 are blurred... lvl 4 just kinda breaks apart but making lvl 3 more solid is always good

technocracy is kinda of a monarchy, but science is the level highest, making it compete with virtual democracy... maybe a military rating of 2 is less harsh for such a late game option

also it seems ecotopia is the next communism/theology, so "new theology" growth should go down to 4... if this seems to make it too weak, you can add science (2 is too short of the other lvl 3 and even ecotopia)

tech tree wise, the directions are good, but did u make sure there arent that many things dependent on jurisp***, ect. Does science have some form of balance?

so what does gold and commerce do? (differently from each other)

**LemurMadness** · June 15, 2006, 13:14

Originally posted by HuangShang
what r the values for tyranny? mostly 1?

1, except Martial Law which is the highest on the game, 5

Originally posted by HuangShang
also it seems ecotopia is the next communism/theology, so "new theology" growth should go down to 4... if this seems to make it too weak, you can add science (2 is too short of the other lvl 3 and even ecotopia)

Ecotopia is, IMHO, the most powerful goverment, as I stated before you can wipe out an entire civilization on a single turn.

Ive added Neo Theology and the information about it on the Great Library, ive made some weird historical information that made the ¨new theology¨being able to show higher regard for science

Originally posted by HuangShang
tech tree wise, the directions are good, but did u make sure there arent that many things dependent on jurisp***, ect. Does science have some form of balance?

Yeah its hard to figure out, Ive chosen Jurisprudence because there is one advance that overlaps the required for the goverment advance, for example, Jurisprudence is required for Bureaucracy, and Theology and Philosophy for Theology and Monarchy.

Theres only 2 advances that requires Jurisprudence, now, 3

Originally posted by HuangShang
so what does gold and commerce do? (differently from each other)

GoldRank is Commerce output, while CommerceRank is the Crime output. Yes, weird (I thought Gold and Commerce were variables that summed up for total Commerce)

Ive made a comparation of NameRank vs Coefs (Rank # - Coef variable):

GrowthRank

1 FoodCoef 0.85
2 FoodCoef 1
3 FoodCoef 1.15
4 FoodCoef 1.25
5 FoodCoef 1.5

ProductionRank

1 ProductionCoef 0.85
2 ProductionCoef 1
3 ProductionCoef 1.15
4 ProductionCoef 1.3
5 ProductionCoef 1.5

ScienceRank

1 MaxScienceRate 0.5
KnowledgeCoef 1
2 MaxScienceRate 0.6
KnowledgeCoef 1.25
3 MaxScienceRate 0.7
KnowledgeCoef 1.5
4 MaxScienceRate 0.8
KnowledgeCoef 2
5 MaxScienceRate 1
KnowledgeCoef 2.5

MaxScienceRate will determine the maxium gold used for science, for example, 0.5 will generate 50% and 0.8 %80, and so on, seems to be along with ScienceRank.

GoldRank

1 GoldCoef 0.75
2 GoldCoef 1
3 GoldCoef 1.25
4 GoldCoef 1.5
5 GoldCoef 1.75

CommerceRank

1 CrimeCoef 1.5
2 CrimeCoef 1.25
3 CrimeCoef 1
4 CrimeCoef 0.75
5 CrimeCoef 0.5

MilitaryRank

1 SupportCoef 2
2 SupportCoef 1.5
3 SupportCoef 1.25
4 SupportCoef 1
5 SupportCoef 0.75

PollutionRank

1 PollutionCoef 1.3
2 PollutionCoef 1.15
3 PollutionCoef 1
4 PollutionCoef 0.8
5 PollutionCoef 0.6

MartialLawRank

1 MaxMartialLawUnits 0
2 MaxMartialLawUnits 1
3 MaxMartialLawUnits 2
4 MaxMartialLawUnits 3
5 MaxMartialLawUnits 4

I haven´t figured out what is loyalty based on... hmmm...

----

Ive made a small mod, with the goverment changes, a new advance called Neo Theology and a goverment called Neo Theocracy, also tech three restructurations:

- Nationalism needs Printing Press and Theology. Facism is no longer a bridge advance.

- Theology needs Jurisprudence and Philosophy.

- Virtual Democracy needs Cybernetics and Digital Encryption

- Ecotopia needs Life Extension and Nano-Machines.

- Neo Theology needs Global Communications and Internet, and gives Neo Theocracy. Neo Theocracy **has Televangelists**. (Be sure to check out the Great Library input for Neo Theology and Neo Theocracy, the icon.. well I dontt have internet at the moment to google a cool image

)

The Great Library information has been updated to fit the tech tree changes.

Here´s the file:

http://ciudad.latinol.com//apolyton/ctp2_data.zip

And the goverment´s excel table:

http://ciudad.latinol.com//apolyton/goverments.xls

**Maquiladora** · June 21, 2006, 02:50

Have a look at this thread Lemur: http://apolyton.net/forums//showthre...hreadid=120360

some of the ideas are a bit too radical to keep everyone happy here

but they came about from a lot of playtesting in MP games.

It depends how you want to balance the governments. One idea is to have them all cost EXACTLY the same science to reach from the beginning of the tech tree, and give them all totally different bonuses. So you would have three governments to choose from per era, except the final two eras which only have two.

Or you could have every government be viable in some all way through the game. So you could still be in Monarchy while someone else is in Technocracy, but still be able to keep up if you use the Monarchy bonuses right. For this to work though the city caps would have to be the same, or if the caps were different, you would have to give Monarchy some leeway to build more cities, like a much lower TooManyCitiesCoefficient, so unhappiness increases much more slowly, but you can still theorhetically reach the same cities at Technocracy if you plan well enough martial law and other happiness factors.

**Ekmek** · June 21, 2006, 13:18

I messed around with govt stuff in my civ3mod. not sure I achieved the balances I was looking for. I like your ideas (both maq and lemur)

I was aiming to have govts that kind of reflected issues in the modern world. tyrranies, monarchies, and theocracies have a high growth rate (population explosions) so they have a lot of food, but low productivity and wealth.

I essentially did my trios based on that: commerce, production, food. and then some adjustments here and there.

**BureauBert** · June 22, 2006, 22:51

Like Tamerlin and possibly some others

I would prefer to keep apart the Source Code Project / Apolyton Edition and modding, although many suggestions concerning governments, unit balancing, handling tile improvents or terraforming, and incorporating features from popular mods into the source code may be reasonable and/or interesting.

I think we should submit the Source Code Project to what I would like to call "Tamerlin's Law"

: Keep "game materials" and their properties basically the same they used to be in the original game (I know there have been some modifcations regarding e.g. trade routes -- but they have been due to "functional" changes in the source code and their purpose was to preserve the original gameplay statistics), add features as long as they are optional -- and leave everything else to Mods.

I could personally live with a modified set of governments in the unmodded AE, but I think this could really irritate / annoy people who just want to play a "better working" CTP2, and a GovernmentsMod or some other Mod including different governments would be the logical, "proper" way to go. Specially since adding a mod has become so easy.

**Ekmek** · June 23, 2006, 11:55

I agree. And I think we have achieved Tamerlin's Law, we have original Ctp2 with a tougher AI. But I don't want to dampen any potential modders. Keep at this and I will help make it into a scenario folder so you can play the mod. i'll add it with my Emod and then we can release an Apolyton Edition Mod Pack!

**Maquiladora** · June 23, 2006, 13:10

I think a simple mod of improvements in the simpler scenario structure suits everyone

**Martin Gühmann** · June 24, 2006, 17:15

Of course we can modify the text files, but there are some restrictions:

Save game compatibilty must be maintained. This means we cannot simply add governments in the middle of the government database. And we cannot change the prerequisites to drastically - but I think - for balancing slight modifications are acceptable. However redesigning the tech tree might be risky but we have to see.

-Martin

**Maquiladora** · June 24, 2006, 18:33

If its for an "AE" mod folder in the scenario structure does it really matter how much is changed?

Although i wasnt particularly expecting we'd be adding new governments and things, perhaps just changing some existing values that we can agree on.

**Martin Gühmann** · June 24, 2006, 19:33

Originally posted by Maquiladora
If its for an "AE" mod folder in the scenario structure does it really matter how much is changed?

For a scenario setup it doesn't matter how much is changed. That's right. But - maybe I didn't make it clear - I wasn't talking about making a scenario based mod but balancing the main text files.

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Although i wasnt particularly expecting we'd be adding new governments and things, perhaps just changing some existing values that we can agree on.

I had this in mind, too. Even if I left the possibilty open for adding some stuff if it does not interfer with savegame compatibility.

In changing some values I also include changing the prerequisites if it doesn't hurt savegame compatibility too much.

-Martin

**Maquiladora** · June 24, 2006, 20:39

Ah i see now.

In talking about modifications i was only referring to an "AE" mod folder.

I assumed there would be no more "balancing" modifications on the main files because people might complain its too unlike the original game again?

Announcement

Possible goverment balances and tech tree restructurations?

Possible goverment balances and tech tree restructurations?

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