GENERAL: Cafe "Tamerlin" II

[Ekmek]

Thanks Martin, Maq, and Tamerlin

wow are numbers have dwindled...

[Protra3211]

Happy birthday E! Best wishes!

Been awhile since the last playtest but three builds back I did enyoy the game.The AI is not a push over anymore. Still have to try the Civ3 mod.From the read me file it makes many changes to how you play the game.
Again those diplomod pictures are a nice added touch.
The AI(3 builds back) makes sweeping attacks against other AI factions when it in a postion to expand,so if your too slow to build up milatary or tech your going to get crushed.
Is the AI in the new build more defensive or offensive?

[Ekmek]

Thanks!

In the new it should still be aggressive because it still has the Shields cheat which allows it to have more units. Atleast thats my theory.

It probably won't notice changes in the new build but in the Civ3Mod you will since I have a lot of gold costs built in that only affect the human, but Martin has since removed.

[Tamerlin]

Happy birthday E...

[Ekmek]

Thanks Tamerlin,

the cafe has been empty these days.

What ever happened to types like The Big Mc or Immortal Wombat?

[Protra3211]

Hi E
Been reading up on the changes to the new builds. The AI has been improved on many levels (downloaded the files ) and far as I can tell it is not due to adding a pile of cheats.It more in the order of how the AI works.
Between you Stan its hard to tell how much more you could improve the AI.
Have you checked Stans Ages of Man site?He has posted now screen shots of AOM3. Looks good!Have AOM2 and feel its on par with games like EU2. Its hard to believe that a year and half ago many were posting on what could be done with the releasing of the CtP2 code.But its been the work of a handfull that has carryed the ball.
Your builds are getting more stable and the release of AOM3 is days away. Might bring some of the older fans back.

[Ekmek]

Protra,

I hope a few come back, but regardless I've been having fun with my civ3mod. its so much more than civ3 now because goods can do different things and a budget issue gets you up front. I havent played a game past the middle ages because I've either been beaten so bad or I've gone to update the code. I'll finish a new game hopefully soon.

I really hope STan has done much to integrate AoMIII with the playtest/builds. If thats the case I'll make an effort to do a AoMIII mod with my E build stuff and finish up the civ3 graphics. Well atleast I'm tossing that idea around.

[Ekmek]

Wow, I thought Civ4 was going to hurt our little CtP2 community but I cruised over to Civ3 the other night to see if there are any ideas/graphics out there I may add o my mod. Civ4 just took all of those people I guess. The activity seems lower than here!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
Wow, I thought Civ4 was going to hurt our little CtP2 community but I cruised over to Civ3 the other night to see if there are any ideas/graphics out there I may add o my mod. Civ4 just took all of those people I guess. The activity seems lower than here!

I am not that surprised, as far as I am concerned, Civ3 is certainly one of the worst 4X games I have tested. Civ4 is far better than its predecessor and is closer to CtP1 and CtP2 on many points... it would have been close to the perfect game with public works, stacked combat, for example, and less emphasis on eye candy.

As far as I am concerned there are two facts explaining why I am less active in this forum. First, I am about to get married and when you do so, at least this is my case, you want to share your life and your time with the most precious being on earth and my computer is obviously not this said being. Second, in my own opinion, the SourceCode Project is going too far away from the original game or the Apolyton Pack (rumble, rumble...). I know that many of you don't agree but this is how I feel.

I have tested Civ4 and though this is a great game it will not replace CtP2 in my free time. The micromanagement that was a real burden in Civ3 is now lighter but there is still a micro/macromanagement blend that is not well balanced. There is actually something that is irritating with many 4X game and Civ4 has not solved the problem. 4X games are Grand strategy games and as a leader you have to decide about things that are sometimes close to the color of the toilets whereas you should name a Minister of the Palace who would in turn name an architect... and hang them both if you don't like the color. The fact that many designers are mixing grand strategical elements with subtactical elements is very annoying. Example : why can't you use the roads in an hostile territory when a turn is several years long, if not tens of years. Operation Overlord would have last something between 50 to 500 years. Why not bothering about the ammunitions of your soldiers?

This far, CtP2 is the only game that made me feel like I was ruling an empire.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

As far as I am concerned there are two facts explaining why I am less active in this forum. First, I am about to get married and when you do so, at least this is my case, you want to share your life and your time with the most precious being on earth and my computer is obviously not this said being.

Congratulations! Marriage is great. But in a year or so you'll be back to computer games

Second, in my own opinion, the SourceCode Project is going too far away from the original game or the Apolyton Pack (rumble, rumble...). I know that many of you don't agree but this is how I feel.

Well, you've been the person I had in mind when i made everything optional. I think you'll see with the debugging and improved AI that the game has gotten better and I have added upgrading in. But it has been almost 3 years what were your preferences again?

[BureauBert]

Glad to see the patron of this café among his guests from time to time .

Originally posted by Tamerlin:
about to get married

Best wishes from my part, too -- it's also nice to see that at least some of us have a life Although I'd like to see you "back to computer games in a year or so" too, I'd rather wish you having a good time with your wife and never wanting to spend any of your spare time in front of a pc screen again .

As for the Apolyton Edition getting too far away from the original game, I think E is right in that all features that are really new are also optional (like the many new database flags E has added, or the integration of unit updating he intends to add). I would not consider improvements like the integration of GoodMod's goods & city styles, making AI diplomacy actually work, optimization of pathing or making the AI build more useful tile improvements via internal logic instead of SLIC being modifications to the game concept but fixing of defects or implementation of features that have been in the code / within the concept from the beginning but were unimplemented or poorly implemented.

As for my taste the Apolyton Edition did not change the basic concepts and gameplay in any way -- so far it improved some aspects of AI, fixed some (well, a lot of) issues and bugs and improved overall performance (well, with some drawbacks in some recent playtest versions, but I am still confident ). It also added a couple of modding features, which doesn't affect the default game but gives modders some great, new possibilities (like working with governments, making a Civ3-Mod possible etc.) . Actually I think many of the fixes may render some AI cheats (which I know you dislike ) that are usually added by most mods obsolete since the AI acts more efficiently and a little bit more like a "normal" player than in the default game.

But instead of explaining my point of view I'd probably rather ask you to explain yours -- I'd be interested to learn which aspects of the AE playtest make an annoying difference compared to the original game in your eyes. Maybe I / we have missed something that should / could be corrected.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by BureauBert
Glad to see the patron of this café among his guests from time to time .

Glad to see you all...

Best wishes from my part, too -- it's also nice to see that at least some of us have a life

How do you know that BureauBert and E, are you married ?

Although I'd like to see you "back to computer games in a year or so" too, I'd rather wish you having a good time with your wife and never wanting to spend any of your spare time in front of a pc screen again .

Thanks a lot...

As for the Apolyton Edition getting too far away from the original game, I think E is right in that all features that are really new are also optional (like the many new database flags E has added, or the integration of unit updating he intends to add).

This is exactly what I want, a game that is as close as possible to the original gameplay, which the Apolyton Pack was though some bugs could not yet be corrected. As far as I am concerned I am playing the Apolyton Pack with Peter's Unit Updater2 and some of Martin's files (though not the new goods). I would like the new features to be optionnal. If they could be selected at the beginning when you configure a new game I would be the happiest Apolytoner in the world.

I would not consider improvements like the integration of GoodMod's goods & city styles, making AI diplomacy actually work, optimization of pathing or making the AI build more useful tile improvements via internal logic instead of SLIC being modifications to the game concept but fixing of defects or implementation of features that have been in the code / within the concept from the beginning but were unimplemented or poorly implemented.

I agree with you, I am certainly totally wrong but this is not what I am feeling about the direction the project is taking. For example, I am not at all interested in new units or new graphics.

As for my taste the Apolyton Edition did not change the basic concepts and gameplay in any way -- so far it improved some aspects of AI, fixed some (well, a lot of) issues and bugs and improved overall performance (well, with some drawbacks in some recent playtest versions, but I am still confident ). It also added a couple of modding features, which doesn't affect the default game but gives modders some great, new possibilities (like working with governments, making a Civ3-Mod possible etc.) . Actually I think many of the fixes may render some AI cheats (which I know you dislike ) that are usually added by most mods obsolete since the AI acts more efficiently and a little bit more like a "normal" player than in the default game.

But instead of explaining my point of view I'd probably rather ask you to explain yours -- I'd be interested to learn which aspects of the AE playtest make an annoying difference compared to the original game in your eyes. Maybe I / we have missed something that should / could be corrected.

I have expressed earlier in this post what I would like, it is a cheat free and bug free game, a kind of CtP2 : the way it should be ... with a unit updater... and perhaps with some optionnal new features... but not too many ones.

About the SourceCode Project I must admit that this is more a feeling than anything else. As far as I am concerned I have had the feeling that many coders were more interested in adding a lot of new features rather than correcting the numerous bugs of the original game. My only complaint was that I have always wanted those changes to be optionnal, I didn't have the feeling that I was heard at this time. I can see E that you have tried to make all the new things optionnal and I apologize as I had not understood this at all. I am waiting for a new build and I will try to test it.

I have just one question, if the changes are optionnal, do we have to tweak the files in order to remove the options we don't want? If yes, is there a guide detailing the changes and the files holding the said changes ?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
Congratulations! Marriage is great. But in a year or so you'll be back to computer games

We will see !

Well, you've been the person I had in mind when i made everything optional. I think you'll see with the debugging and improved AI that the game has gotten better and I have added upgrading in. But it has been almost 3 years what were your preferences again?

Thank you very much, I don't think I deserve all this.

My preferences :

- CtP2 : the way it should be (Apolyton Pack) without bugs and cheats
- Unit Updater
- Optionnal features that can be selected or unselected when you create a new game

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

How do you know that BureauBert and E, are you married ?

Yes, I'm married for four years now with a baby boy. When he sleeps I get CTP2 time

I have just one question, if the changes are optional, do we have to tweak the files in order to remove the options we don't want? If yes, is there a guide detailing the changes and the files holding the said changes ?

Not at all. Actually its the other way around, if you want the optional features you have to add them in. Except a pop-up that warns you that you are starting a war and a better AI that is.

In a way I have been using my Civ3mod as a showcase of the new features added to CtP2. So if you want to see a CtP2 with a lot of the AE features (and my converted graphics) the Civ3mod is where its at.

I know you are not a fan of Civ3 so don't let the Civ3mod name scare you. Because of my changes and the way I implemented things "Civ3mod" is a legacy name. The graphics along with the new diplomod are heavily borrowed from Civ3 though. I have some features like civonly units, units that need resources to build, happy goods, and now religious units (well Civ4). So, I cherry picked some things I liked about Civ3. But it doesn't play like Civ3 because all the CtP2 elements remain.


So in a nutshell the AE game is actually based on Apolyton pack with Martin's good mod now. And in the playtest thread I have added a new units text with the only modification being an upgrade path so you can upgrade units with enough gold (by sleeping them in a city)

Great to see you still around and again congrats on getting married

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
Yes, I'm married for four years now with a baby boy. When he sleeps I get CTP2 time

That sounds rather classical...

Not at all. Actually its the other way around, if you want the optional features you have to add them in. Except a pop-up that warns you that you are starting a war and a better AI that is.

I should give it a try, I am currently discovering again a game I played only once or two at the time because CtP2 was released rather quickly after it was published (and because I waited for the game to be sold at a reduced price), Civilization: Call to Power. The game is lacking some features (like frontiers) but it is fairly enjoyable with AAIPSV1_ORIGINALGAME mod and a unit updater built by Hatschy. The interface is pretty good and, at least IMO, very efficient. In spite of some flaws I really enjoy the different time flow of Civ: CtP, less emphasis on ancient era and more on the future era. It is thus different from CtP2 though many concepts are similar and the two games are in a way complementary. Needless to say the mod I have picked does not change anything to the gameplay, the concepts and does not add any new unit...

In a way I have been using my Civ3mod as a showcase of the new features added to CtP2. So if you want to see a CtP2 with a lot of the AE features (and my converted graphics) the Civ3mod is where its at.

I know you are not a fan of Civ3 so don't let the Civ3mod name scare you. Because of my changes and the way I implemented things "Civ3mod" is a legacy name. The graphics along with the new diplomod are heavily borrowed from Civ3 though. I have some features like civonly units, units that need resources to build, happy goods, and now religious units (well Civ4). So, I cherry picked some things I liked about Civ3. But it doesn't play like Civ3 because all the CtP2 elements remain.

I am not a fan at all of the strategical resources as they are implemented in Civ3, I even think that it is a real spoiler. Civ4 has greatly improved the system and I think that Strategical Resources should be a bonus (why not a great one so that the player is still looking for them) rather than a condition. When a stupid AI is unable to reach an agreement with you, though your proposal is fair, and when you don't have any luck about the way the said resources were distributed on the map, the game can become very boring. Even if Civ4 is a great improvement, some era in the game are boring while you are waiting for the scientific achievements that will allow you to build new things and cross a new boundary.

So in a nutshell the AE game is actually based on Apolyton pack with Martin's good mod now. And in the playtest thread I have added a new units text with the only modification being an upgrade path so you can upgrade units with enough gold (by sleeping them in a city)

With the wedding getting closer I have less and less time available, I don't think I will have the time to playtest the game until july, but I will try.

Peter's UnitUpdater2 allowed the units to be updated in a fortress, are your updater limited to cities?

Great to see you still around and again congrats on getting married

Thanks again!