DESIGN: Wonder limits & limited wonders

[tyrantpimp]

I think evolving wonders is a great idea it ads a level of realism and could be an elegant solution to balancing gameplay. Or it could destroy the world as we know it. I guess it all depends on how its implemented

[KHOMAR]

tyrantpimp, what are the dangers of this possibility ?

[MrBaggins]

A wonders obsolescence is intentional. A wonder having an effect AFTER its intended obsolescence is theoretically unbalancing, especially in comparison to more modern wonders.

[KHOMAR]

observing wonders,we could notice that ancient ones have all evolved in touristic attraction (gold benefit) in the real world,whereas most of science-based, modern,wonders will be made obsolete by scientific evolution.Non science-based wonders tend to evoluate throough the age in their role,in the civilization who build them.

[MrBaggins]

While realism is a nice aim to consider, and obviously unrealistic circumstances should be avoided, game balance is typically of more importance.

No use in a game being realistic, if its not challenging, balanced (both for Human/AI and MP) and fun.

We can't determine what effect extra advantages for obsolete wonders will have until its tested in a structured play test.

[MrBaggins]

You should also note that all of the (seven) Ancient wonders have NOT evolved in tourist attraction... primarily since only one survived (Khufu's Great Pyramid.) Having nothing to see is a disadvantage to a tourist attraction...

[Ekmek]

Great ideas. This might not be the right place but I would like to say the visible wonders mod should be made part of the game...

[epeterson]

All great ideas! Maybe we ought to take suggestions on 1 wonder at a time so we can focus on how best to do this. Or is it too early for this sort of thing?

[MrBaggins]

Yep... way too early. To some degree we're still at the stage of changing the structure of how things are defined and what options we'd like for those structures.


Deciding what values we'd like within the game files, for various things, will come after that works been done... although a start has been made in a couple of areas...

You're particularly welcome to brainstorm ideas for new wonder & building effects though...

[tmminionman]

This is a great thread. Expanding on many ideas i've seen here, what about culturally limited wonders?

Civ 3 for instance has different societal attributes...a civ can be scientific, commercial, militaristic, religious, expansionist, industrious, etc.
For a religious civ, things such as J.S. Bach's Cathedral would be very powerful, Sun tzu's war academy for militaristic civs, hoover dam or something like that for industrius civs, etc.

The idea is that it is to your civ's advnatage to build it's special kind of wonder. all civs could technically build all wonders, but they would have the greatest for the culture type their meant for. The AI could be programmed to build only it's special type of wonders (it's not smart enough to know when to build wonders to spite other players).

This could be applied in many ways, as many different levels of "greatness' for the wonders as the programmers would like.

[realpolitic]

Many of the early wonders are so watered down they aren't worth it. The good ones are still secondary to conquest & expansion- conquing a 9th city rougly increases food, production science by 12% (assuming each city is about equal) while Aristotle's Lyserium increases science only by 20%, Chichen Izta decreases crime under despotism from 30 to 20% the 10% icrease being roughly the value of another conquered city, but when the switch to monarchy occurs the normal crime rate is 20% so CI will cut it to 13%, the 7% diffence is still about the same as conquering a city.
Ramayana is also useful, but my guess is that ailysis would prove it isn't all that great.

Gutenburg's Bible is also a nice wonder to have, but since I use hoplite/archer/slaver combos to reach my 35 city limit, by the time my troops settle into cities, I usually don't switch from Fascism to Democracy, because Corporate Republic is right around the corner, so the +2 happiness bonus is less useful.

Penacylin is good, but it takes forever to pay for itself, again it's less valuable than it seems.

Limiting the early wonders to a time frame makes them worthless.

[Ekmek]

For bookkeeping:

I've added OnePerCiv code that allows buildings to act as Small Wonders/National Projects. Your civ can only build one (each civ can have one)

I've also added for buildings and wonders code that requires multiple buildings in your civ before you can build the wonder or building similar to the feat. i.e. 5 libraries in your civ in order to buid the great library

[Protra3211]

This would be a great add on to your builds E. Wll the AI be able to know how handle this? Many still only play single mode.
It seems that in the early part of the game the AI is able to build many wonders before you can. However as you reach the mondern age your production power is a factor that allows you to catch up. Also the score of 600 per wonder gives you a easy lead.
A rebalancing of the end game to help the AI is needed.Wonders is something to think about. Some mods change the scoring system a bit like MY Mod by Player1 lowering wonder score to 300.
Having a new wonder victory like the Solaris Project that starts the Gaia Controllar might help.Many of the late wonders like this one are never build by the AI. Can the AI build a UN or a space program wonder that sets it up for victory?Something that the AI can only build vs human players ability to out score or expand thur militray might.
Side Note: but as each build comes out I have found the im pushed longer into the modern age so this claim might not hold up in the future. That is if I dont cheat and reduce the military readiness level as a way to catch up!

[Ekmek]

PROTRA,

Actually this is afeature I added a long time ago and playtested quite a bit in my Civ3mod (now called Call to Civilization).

THe AI managed it fine. A few cities I captured had there Small Wonder (in this case the academy) and because it was built before I built mine I couldn't build mine. I have small wonders set up so you can specialize cities. So in this case the academy was to be built in my science city but couldn't because it was already in the captured city.

In the future I intend to use these to allow for increased specialization but the AI spreads the wealth more but still handles them fine.