Anybody home?

[demon59]

I'm not going to knock a game I've never played (CivIV...or even III). I'm not a CTP2 fanatic. I've just found that as I get older, the eye candy...err, I mean improved graphics...become more of a distraction to me than a desirable feature. I could accept needing a higher powered CPU to handle improved AI and such, but a TBS game that requires a higher end graphics card to play, just seems like development resources focused in the wrong area. (You know the area I'm talking about... the one I CAN"T AFFORD! )
As for AoM, my gaming skills are such that the strategy discussions on the original release were the only thing that kept the mod from being more frustration than enjoyment for me. Then my computer died and by the time I could scrape together the funds for a replacement, AoMIV was being released, and so much had been added that I'm back at the bottom of the learning cliff, so to speak.
What is Stan doing these days? Did I read that he had decided to go back to school to study film making?

[hexagonian]

It appears that Stan pulled support of the game last winter, when he shut down his site. Nobody has seen or heard from him since - and his loyalist fans never bothered to come over here to continue the strategy discussions - even though most of them had registered here at Apolyton before the official AoM site closed. The loyalists may have hated me for being critical (and I maintain that THEY set the initial tone of any discussions comparing AoM and civ4, so I ended up discussing the games on THEIR level), but I also continually challenged them about the fact that AoM would die out without any sort of public discussion in a higher-profiled site like Apolyton. None of them followed through with continuing discussion here as a means to try to build up additional support...and unfortunately, there hasn't appeared to be any interest since - if post count, and reaction to your call for discussion - is any indication of fan interest.

And the support had to come from people who were actively playing the game, not from people like me who had moved on from AoM to civ4 for their TBS gamefix.

It is a sad truth of gaming that the shelf life of most game is not that long anymore, ESPECIALLY if the community is small to begin with - and that was the case with AoM. It was a good game, but it came 3 years too late, and ran into the buzzsaw of civ4 - and as much as the loyalists may hate it, civ4 is a very good game with solid gameplay - and civ4 benefits because it has a large fanbase AND it continued to evolve with the Xpacks and Mods.

And as you have observed, gaming is not only about playing, but it is also about strategy discussion. It is a communal experience. Your desire to discuss the finer points of the game is a clear indication of that fact. Without that community though, niche games and indie projects are doomed to fail in the long-term.

I posted about Rhye's work because it is the civ4 Mod that is most like AoM. Since Rhye's Mod is still able to ride the wave of popularity of civ4, it also benefits from a vibrant community. (...at civfanatics though)

The only suggestion I can make is that there is a AoM succession game that is about to start in the CTP2 forums. Play that...or email stan, angrybowen, smithldoo, AlbertTheWhite, etc. and ask them if they are interested in playing in a succession game themselves.

Get involved with the game on that level, and you will have people to discuss the game with.

[Solver]

Games can continue to live even with a small community. The problem with AoM, IMO, is the very fact that it's based on CtP2. Let's face it, CtP2 was never too popular. By the time AoM first came out, Apolyton was the only real CtP2 community online, and not a huge one at that. And these days, it seems, there are very few CtP2 players.

While I never fully enjoyed the gameplay of AoM, I maintain that it's a great mod. It could really have a bright future if it had a Civ4 version now.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by hexagonian

The only suggestion I can make is that there is a AoM succession game that is about to start in the CTP2 forums. Play that...or email stan, angrybowen, smithldoo, AlbertTheWhite, etc. and ask them if they are interested in playing in a succession game themselves.

Get involved with the game on that level, and you will have people to discuss the game with.

Yes, you're welcome to join us demon.

It's a great way to learn the mod, and learn new things no matter what level you're at.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168966

[Boney]

Originally posted by Dale
Hex,

I wouldn't bother mate. These guys don't like Civ4, will never like Civ4, and seen to be totally brainwashed against Civ4.

Dale I think your post is totally unfair.

I like both AoM and Civ4. Both games have their pros and cons.

Hex I did read your comments about AoM and I can see where you are coming from. In truth I have found that the most enjoyable CTP2 game was cradle.

AoM is great but it just takes so so long and barbarians in the 20th century with tanks and top of research? And as you pointed out it is not quite right that only the human player seems to be affected with the big game upheavals. But the way armies are grouped together is just so excellent.

Civ4 I enjoy but it is a little shallow, but I think was intentional. The game play is good and my son and I can play together with the hotseat. Vel's strategy is an excellent read.

So am I a weirdo for liking both? right now Civ4 is being played mostly.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Boney
Civ4 I enjoy but it is a little shallow, but I think was intentional. The game play is good and my son and I can play together with the hotseat. Vel's strategy is an excellent read.

I'd define it as streamlined rather than shallow.

Civ4 took the best features of civ and CtP (with the exception of pure stacked combat) and integrated it into a single game. I feel that civ4 also created a variety of means to win that are not specifically tied into how big you can get. It is this game design that tipped the scales for me to play civ4 over CtP.

Oftentimes, there is a difference between complex strategy decisions and simply creating busywork.

Take the worker system in civ4. I used to favor the CtP/AoM PW sytem because it was more streamlined, but because civ4 game mechanics are not primarily driven by Bigger Is Better TM (and the elimination of civ3 pollution), a player is not locked into endless worker management throughout the game unless he chooses to play that way. Many times, I have my cities all improved by the mid-game, and any new cities I take will already be improved. I can also give my workers a 'go to' command to easily link up my cities with roads and rails.

End result - I can play either system without wishing that it was the other system.

Or take goods that promote health/happiness benefits. Both games have this feature, both work under the same principles to directly gain control of those goods (build an improvement on them), but civ4 also allows a player to also easily trade for that good to get the benefits. It is this latter addition in civ4 that streamlines the process, AND gives a strategic choice to the player to either further develop and foster goodwill with rivals for a set amount of turns, or create hostility and resentment. Trade goods with rival civs in CtP, and the only benefit you get is gold, and the endless hassle of the AI breaking your trade routes with no rhyme or reason.

In CtP/AoM, you had to continually deal with trespassers - asking them to leave and then have them show up again. Repeat process again and again...

In civ4...open/closed borders stop that endless annoyance.

And the list goes on and on...

Originally posted by Boney
Hex I did read your comments about AoM and I can see where you are coming from. In truth I have found that the most enjoyable CTP2 game was cradle.

Thanks...my thought was that the additions to AoM, although creative, ended up creating too much (IMO) busywork micromanagement - especially when the game moves into the Dark Ages and beyond. And just as important, the primary focus of AoM was to get bigger and bigger in order to win, making continual conquest the preferred path to victory - thus limiting diverse strategic decisions - which also continued the cycle of creating even more late-game micromanagement.

That may be what some players want - and there is nothing wrong with anyone who enjoys playing a game that focuses on those micromanagement issues, but I no longer have the time or desire for that type of gaming. And if I was ever to go back to CtP2, I'd probably make some personal file adjustments in Cradle rather than play AoM. To be fair, Cradle is also tied into Bigger Is Better TM, but it doesn't have the additional features of AoM that end up adding more micro.

Originally posted by Boney
And as you pointed out it is not quite right that only the human player seems to be affected with the big game upheavals.

Last night, continuing to play Rome in a Rhye's civ4 game, I got nailed by the Dark Ages plague, and was satisfied to see all of Europe outside of my borders affected.

Originally posted by Boney So am I a weirdo for liking both? right now Civ4 is being played mostly.

No...and I do find it interesting that you are favoring civ4 now.

[Tellius]

Hi,

I would have tried CivIV a long time ago if not for the PC specs. I simply have no need for a new pc, and buying one for a game is just a bit too much for me.

I've been told my 2Ghz with 512Mb Ram won't run the game, maybe several patches have lowered the minimal requirements a bit? I'd love to try out the game ánd the mod you guys mention.

By the way, I don't really like the graphical engine of CivIV - I've seen many many screenshots. I think for civ games, a nicely detailed bitmap engine is still the best way to go (think for instance of the detailed maps of the last generation of bitmap games such as Blitzkrieg). Just a matter of taste. I hope bigger sized tiles will eventually be possible in CtP AE

So Dale and Hex, your post saying that people who play CtP2 or AOM are mostly closed-minded pittifull people is not really correct in my case, I enjoy AOM on a daily base, I did try Civ3 (but didn't really like it) and would like to try Civ4, I just don't want to buy a new pc for it.

I used to read the threads on the original AOM forum, where people were bashing back and forth, with growing disbelief, I couldn't figure out why anyone would get upset over a game! I like playing AOM, and posted some questions and sometimes an answer on the original forum. I never felt the urge to defend my liking of the game, I mean, it's a game. If that's all it takes to be labeled a closed-minded loyalist fan, well, I guess it's time to look for another hobby, or at least stear away from threads like these.

Greetz

T.

[Solver]

I've been told my 2Ghz with 512Mb Ram won't run the game, maybe several patches have lowered the minimal requirements a bit? I'd love to try out the game ánd the mod you guys mention.

That's simply false, I first played Civ4 on a slightly weaker machine. Yes, it will get slow if you play the largest maps, but it will run.

[Boney]

Originally posted by hexagonian

I'd define it as streamlined rather than shallow.

Oftentimes, there is a difference between complex strategy decisions and simply creating busywork.

Take the worker system in civ4. I used to favor the CtP/AoM PW sytem because it was more streamlined, but because civ4 game mechanics are not primarily driven by Bigger Is Better TM (and the elimination of civ3 pollution), a player is not locked into endless worker management throughout the game unless he chooses to play that way. Many times, I have my cities all improved by the mid-game, and any new cities I take will already be improved. I can also give my workers a 'go to' command to easily link up my cities with roads and rails.

End result - I can play either system without wishing that it was the other system.

In civ4...open/closed borders stop that endless annoyance.

Streamlined is more the word I was looking for. Others may call it dumbing down, but it enables me and my son to play together, whereas other versions were too complicated and time consuming.

Civ3 pollution, culture flipping, distance from capital penalties really put me off the game, but all these have been adjusted for Civ4

Originally posted by hexagonian
No...and I do find it interesting that you are favoring civ4 now.

As I said I do like both games, but Civ4 is just so much less time consuming.



As I said before I used to like Cradle, and it is probably still my fave Civ game of all time. But I can't be bothered with the hassle of putting it on my new computer.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Tellius
So Dale and Hex, your post saying that people who play CtP2 or AOM are mostly closed-minded pittifull people is not really correct in my case, I enjoy AOM on a daily base, I did try Civ3 (but didn't really like it) and would like to try Civ4, I just don't want to buy a new pc for it.

You were never part of the group that I would lump as a loyalist - and I believe that I never directed anything at you. There is nothing wrong with preferring one game over another - and I tried to frame my arguments with a great deal of allowance for preference. (I said that AoM is more micromanage-focused, but there are players who may want that...good for them)

I always encouraged people to play what they enjoy. And my opinions about game mechanics are just that...opinions.



Here is where the differences are between me and those I would define as loyalists though...

Originally posted by Tellius
I used to read the threads on the original AOM forum, where people were bashing back and forth, with growing disbelief, I couldn't figure out why anyone would get upset over a game! I like playing AOM, and posted some questions and sometimes an answer on the original forum. I never felt the urge to defend my liking of the game, I mean, it's a game. If that's all it takes to be labeled a closed-minded loyalist fan, well, I guess it's time to look for another hobby, or at least stear away from threads like these.

My definition of a loyalist was someone who refuses to see any value in the other system.

To put it into perspective, if I compared the amount of time I played SMAC vs CtP, CtP would win that battle hands down. Yet I consider SMAC to be one of the most incredible games created because of the atmosphere created in the game. It's just that I was never personally crazy about the sci-fi setup, but I recognized that it did a great job for what it was designed to do.

Angrybowen, smithldoo, AlbertThe White, and to some degree, even Stan, could not find one good thing to say about civ4, because they went into the game looking for things to hate about it. I can somewhat accept Stan's bias, because he created AoM, and he was understandably proud of what he had done with the CtP engine, (...and to his credit, he generally was low-key about his criticism of civ), but the others crossed the line when they started calling people who enjoy civ4 mindless morons, or expressed disbelief when somebody played AoM and then went back to playing CtP MedMod. These were things that hit a nerve with me. (and I really do enjoy civ4...I've been playing it for almost 2 years and the only games I have bought in the past year and a half have been both civ4 XPacks)

So when that happened (twice), I decided to take the argument to them on their rules and terms (...they focused heavily on the portrayal of realism in both games and how ITO, AoM was so much better in this regard, so I presented counterpoint to show that all games are simply abstractions, and that each game focuses on different aspects of reality) and on their level of snobbish gaming elitism (...since they thought civ4 players were mindless morons, I was free to be sarcastic and belittling to them).

And there were several times that I publicly posted how funny it was that everyone was so worked up about game mechanics...and that I would be laughing my head off about the directions the discussions were heading.

The funny thing is that I never did hear the same observation from them, (...the realization that we all were arguing about trival things in the great scheme of life) which actually made me laugh even harder because all the discussion heat was being generated over what amounts to a diversionary hobby (as you pointed out).

So I kept the ball rolling, hoping that readers could get beyond the smoke and see that gamechoice does not define intelligence, as they had stated several times - and to show readers the loyalists' true petty nature. And during the process, I think I learned that lesson a little better myself.

You see, when it was all said and done, I know that civ4/AoM are only games...and I still wonder if they figured that out.

Oh well...I guess I should have taken the high road on the discussions, but that had failed in the gorilla thread.

When I initially posted here, it was to present Rhye's modwork as an interesting alternative for players who enjoyed what AoM offered. Rhye's work, simply stated, is not AoM, but it presents a unique gaming experience that may appeal to someone who likes AoM.

And many players play a variety of games. Although I have not bought any new games other than civ4 XPacks lately, I continue to play a varity of games (I played some AoE1, Pharaoh, and AoW2, as well as FfH2 for civ4 over the past year)

Civ4 also provides a lot of unique mods - more than CtP ever did. All of the CtP2 mods are historically based, but the civ4 community has sci-fi, fantasy, as well as a lot of historical mods and scenarios. That alone creates a lot of choices for a player.

Originally posted by Tellius
I would have tried CivIV a long time ago if not for the PC specs. I simply have no need for a new pc, and buying one for a game is just a bit too much for me.

I've been told my 2Ghz with 512Mb Ram won't run the game, maybe several patches have lowered the minimal requirements a bit? I'd love to try out the game ánd the mod you guys mention.

I do realize that any game has a somewhat hit-or-miss record on any system, so there is always a chance that you may experience sluggish performance, while someone else doesn't have the same problem on a similar system.

To be honest, when civ4 first came out, it ran very slow on my 2.7Ghz/1024Mb RAM/128Mb vid card on anything over standard map size. I tabled the game, hoping for a patch that would clear it up. The patch that was released about 6 months later (I cannot remember the number, I think it was 1.51) did clear up performance though. Both XPacks run nicely on my system now. And I do not generally play the largest maps anyhow.

Originally posted by Tellius
By the way, I don't really like the graphical engine of CivIV - I've seen many many screenshots. I think for civ games, a nicely detailed bitmap engine is still the best way to go (think for instance of the detailed maps of the last generation of bitmap games such as Blitzkrieg). Just a matter of taste.

The graphics have really grown on me, though it is not what defines why I play civ4.

[Protra3211]

I have held on and kept playing CtP2 because of the support found here in Apolyton.More than 5 years now and still with the code updates I find a reason to start up another game .
But its the many people in here that make you feel welcome and a part of the civ commuinty.
Could Ages of Man with all its updates and AI changes sell as it is and compete with other games today?
I know that of course will never happen but I wonder.

[Ekmek]

this thread is haunted by CtP2 ghosts!

Civ4 with BTS is not a bad game. I'm still irked about not having some way to atleast simulate PW in Civ4.

I thought about adding a gold cost in order to build a tileimp (plot) and was told it was there, but its not. the other option is to make workers cheaper and then have them disbanded by python after building a tileimp/plot. Any chance you ex-ctp2ers will ever try helping with that?

And Dale I see your long range add-on for Civ4 I'm just amazed you cant get Firaxis to add that as standard code in the next patch (even though don't change the stats). Andd that and prereq civics flag.

That is my moding irk with civ4 now, the community does a lot for a dll but its hard to combine them all yeah I know there is a combo project at CFC, but Firaxis could cherry pick some basic stuff like ranged bombard and prereqcivics...


And to stay on topic for AoM, I thought the same thing when I saw Rhye's that it is an AoM heir. Does anyone know what the unbridged differences are at the moment?

[Solver]

Cmon E, you could mod it into Civ4 with your skills. Gold for tile improvements would be easily modded. A PW system is also quite possible to implement, though it's not something I would do because of the AI.

[Dale]

Never thought I'd say this, but I like the Civ4 worker method now. It's a million times better than Civ2/3.

*wanders off grumbling about past comments coming back to haunt me*

[demon59]

I'm running a 2.01 GHz AMD Athlon 64 CPU (3200+) with 1 Gig of Ram with no separate graphics card. Do you think CivIV would run on this?

Verbally abusing someone over their choice of games is IMO the real indicator of a serious intelligence deficiency. I've been playing Civilization games since the original board game, and I've rarely played one that was totally without merit. I really enjoy CTP2 in its various incarnations (love the stacked combat and PW system), I still enjoy Alpha Centauri, and I even stick CivII in my old Playstation every now and then. I've even been known to dig out my old MOOII disc for a bit of something different. None of these games are perfect, but they're all entertaining when I'm in the mood for a game.
For perfect, someone would have to release a version of M.U.L.E. for Windows XP!