CTP: The Best Civ, or TBS, Game Ever?

[Nordicus]

Utrecht:
Please see above


But for argument's sake (although this is not the purpose of this thread) okay...

1) Game Balance is off. This surrounds the fact that the most cost effective unit is the Pikeman. (Fascists are an exception but require a special government)

--1. This can be corrected easily.

2) AI does not adhere to its own pacts. I.e. non-piracy, no tresspass

--2. This is true, but this is being corrected right now.

3) Diplomacy is BAAAAAAD.

--3. Yes it is. This is also being corrected right now.

4) The timing of the ages are off.

--4. This can be easily corrected.

5) The game was released about 4 months early. (This is not to say SMAC was perfect because it is on patch 4)

--5. Probably, I'm not sure. But what game in this day and age comes out the exact day it was originally intended, working perfectly?
But what is your point here?

6) No borders

--6. Well, you got me there. I'd love to see them and wish I knew how to incorporate them into citys' surrounding limits, maybe making them faintly the same color as the civ, but I'm not sure that can be down (at least, I don't know). So, one for you

As for your other, following comments, I'll leave it to someone else to comment on them, because I've said enough for now.

Thanks for your vote, though.


BM:

The 'lawyer' thing--true enough


[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 29, 1999).]

[Monkey]

Nordicus>

Ahhhh... so you want to know which game with the word "Civilization" in its name is the best. Ok to be honest there are really not that many competitors out there is there?

Here's some that I can think of> Civ1, Civ2, CTP, TOT, freeciv, Galatic Civ?

I don't know about the last two but out of Civ1, Civ2, CTP, TOT I think civ1 is out of the race since it's too old (although some might disagree) I also havent played TOT so I guess I'll cast my vote based on what I know. CTP and civ2

Hmmmm... I'm reluctant to call CTP as the best civ game yet because in doing so it would say that CTP beats civ2 hands down. Same reason as to why I can't simply say civ2 is better. To put it simply civ2 has things that CTP is currently lacking and CTP has things that civ2 is lacking.

There are the things in civ2's gameplay that CTP has improved on. Building queue, empire level support, powerworks, stacking are all great ideas that CTP introduced. But at the cost of a better diplomacy, speed of the turns, general atmospheric touches (Believe it or not but even the sound of a simple cheer when you create a city improvement in civ2 makes me want to go on when I'm about to fall asleep).

Ok I think I'm still going off topic but i hope you see my position when I said that neither CTP nor civ2 can topple each other at this point in time. But hey show me a much improved diplomacy model, a border or two and maybe increased speed in CTP and I'll say that CTP easily tramps over civ2 anyday.


Best TBS game? CTP? No. Simple as that.

As for saying that SMAC does not belong in the civ category... errr you might like to play SMAC and tell me which has more in common with civ2... CTP or SMAC. Also I think SMAC has every right to be called a civ-style game... it is a story about mankind's civilization settling on a far distant planet to escape the ravages of Earth. The only reason why it doesn't have the name civilization is probably because Firaxis does not own the rights to the Civ name... microprose does which they lent to Activision ,who decided to create a totally different game based on a similar concept.

[Nordicus]

Monkey:
Okay. I can respect your opinion.
I agree that there's many qualities in Civ2 that I'd love to see in CTP (like its diplomacy, some aspects of its interface, yadda-yadda, there's a number of them), but Civ2 is (although a great game) a rock. It can't be changed or improved upon. CTP can be, is, and will be improved upon. Aside from whoever owns this game taking its sweet friggin time coming out with patches, I've seen much more improvement on this game from people who enjoy it and who took a bit of extra time to make it better for others.
This point alone, the ability to customize it, is why I think it blows Civ2 away. When I first bought CTP, I thought, "Ah, cool graphics, but Civ2 was better." And then I found out everything that can be done to change it and quickly changed my mind. But that's my opinion. The object of this thread is not to convert people to my viewpoint, so I won't try. I just thought a rational, constructive thread about CTP was in order, considering how many there are trying to either bash it or insult those who like playing it. As well, a simple poll to see what people think.

As for SMAC, I dunno. Never played it, never wanted to--I'm into more realistic games, and I took a look at its graphics and wasn't impressed. Again, that's me; a lot of people say they like it better. Okay--so that's why opinions are called opinions and not facts.
I'd like someone to describe points about why they think SMAC is better, list some qualities...can it be customized? Can the graphics be improved? Things like this.

I'm not into game manufacturing politics, so I don't know and will have to take your word on that. But maybe list a few points describing why SMAC should be included in the Civ question here. Perhaps I was wrong.

Anyway, I do see your point, and I'm glad you have an open, reasoning mind on this subject. If you have further suggestions for improvements, maybe visit some of the Creation threads and take a moment to put some down. There are a number of people, like myself, who are realizing the potential of this game and are trying to bring it out, and new comments and suggestions are welcome.

But that's enough for now.

[hexagonian]

I'm glad to see that there can be a rational discussion of this topic without stooping to name-calling, insults or other tripe.

Monkey,
So you played SMAC - I tried the demo. The graphics didn't bother me like they do some people. I guess the main problem I had was that I couldn't get into the Sci-fi aspect of the game. I felt that I had to have a Ph.D. in order to understand the various techs. That and the unit pathing...

The diplomacy though - that was fascinating. It definitely drew you into the game. You really felt that you were dealing with flesh-and-blood opponents. If only CTP had that...

I have been tempted to get SMAC though, its just that I'm still having too much fun with CTP. Every time I get a new game, it 'drives the previous one off my hard drive' and I'm not ready to do that to CTP just yet.

[Utrecht]

Is CTP the best Civ type game......Unequivacably no. IMHO that honor belongs to SMAC. The gaming functions and depth provided by SMAC far outweigh what CTP offers.

This is not to say that CT does not have any great functions. The single best thing is Support at a Civ level not at a city level. Trade has been inproved (but has a looooong way to go)and customization is very nice. (To bad you need to actually do this to make the game work..........)

Now, the two biggest slams I have heard against SMAC are 1) The colors suck and 2) I don't like the sci-fi element (You can make this comment about the Genetic and Diamond ages in CTP). These are valid comments, but I do not believe that they detract from it being the BEST Civ type game.

Reasons that I think that CTP falls short:

1) Game Balance is off. This surrounds the fact that the most cost effective unit is the Pikeman. (Fascists are an exception but require a special government)

2) AI does not adhere to its own pacts. I.e. non-piracy, no tresspass

3) Diplomacy is BAAAAAAD.

4) The timing of the ages are off.

5) The game was released about 4 months early. (This is not to say SMAC was perfect because it is on patch 4)

6) No borders

Now some of the good ideas that did not work as well as anticipated.

PW. I found that it is no less maintenance dealing with these than formers.

Special Units. Some are good - Slaver but some are plain abusive like Lawyers and Subliminal.

Trade: It is just a slightly enhanced version of Civ2. Could have been more.

Space and Sea Cities. Generally have come too late in the game to be usefull.


So what am I trying to say.....SMAC is a better game, it is deeper and more thourly thought out.

[WesW]

I played SMAC for about a month or two, and got tired of it because it was so much like civ II.
The social engineering model was very good. It really made you think. This was about the only major improvement though, imo.
The diplomacy had more options, sure, but the attitude and actions of the AI was essentially unchanged from civ II.
The 3d terrain loses its novelty after a while, and the unit design shop gets to be a pain after a while.
The design shop and the faction advantages are from MOO2, btw, which I played for over a year, so maybe that is why they grew stale for me.
Utrecht's gripes are all valid, but most all of them have been corrected my the mod-makers here.
About borders: the first patch added borders to the game. We all know about getting messages asking us if we want to lower our reputation or not. The AI just frequently decides that it doesn't care about its rep. Also, have you noticed that when you conquer a city, some of the terrain stats don't show up under the workers? This is because they are working on the other side of the new border. You can also see the outline if you look closely at that screen. Hopefully they will make the outline available on the main map in a future patch like it is for SMAC.

[Nordicus]

hexagoian:
Hey, thanks for standing up for reason Yeah, it was that whole Sci-fi thing that threw me also. Is the AI in SMAC similar to
Civ2? And what about the diplomacy? Better than Civ2? Worse?
Oh yeah--I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I won't--you haven't cast your vote for 1, 2, and 3.
Later.
N.

[Nordicus]

Wes:
Geez, it didn't even see your post! I'm constantly missing your post. Need glasses
Sure sounds live Civ2.

No, Wes, not the borders when you go into the city production screen; borders as in a civ's borders, like political borders in the real world. I think this would great, stopping that Wandering AI Syndrone, adding more realism--you cross the border: act of war. Period. End of discussion. (Except for special units, of course.) I would love to see that, wouldn't you?
I hear what you're saying, though, about the workers switching or caught on the enemy civ's land.
Seems to me that Civ2's AI wasn't all that special, esp. regarding trespassing; their units did it all the time too, except you couldn't expel any of them and the enemy unit ruined the tile it was parked on. (Oh boy I starved many an AI city surrounding it with thirty divisions of tanks and then building fortresses in every city square radius...not attacking, just waiting for the numbers to drop, once in a while see some pathetic unit try to futilely smash its way out of the city--usually I'd do that to the very last city, esp. if that civ made it tough for me. I'd wait until the population hit 1, then I'd knock it off with some old, clunkety knight or musketeer. Ah...that was fun. I haven't tried that yet with CTP.
Geez, I gotta give that a try!)

Later.

[Monkey]

WesW

Hmmmm from your post it sounds like you like CTP because it was a whole new different game... I'm beginning to think that there are two kinds of civers who played civ2 before moving on to CTP.

1) The crowd that liked civ2 and doen't want any significant changes. I've seen posts where people go on and on about the interface of CTP and how they weren't willing to give it a good go because the interface was horrible in their opinion and how they shouldn't have to play more than a couple of hours to get used to the interface yadi yadi ya.... if this is the majority of civers then i worry about the outcome of civ3.

2) The crowd that liked civ2 but believed civ2 was too limiting in some ways or executed some things wrongly. I can see how this would cause the "CTP is better than SMAC" threads since SMAC is almost like civ2 in every way.... and you don't really want to be playing a game with the same limitations of civ2.


Nordicus>

but Civ2 is (although a great game) a rock. It can't be changed or improved upon. CTP can be, is, and will be improved upon.

I absolutely agree with every single word that you said here... now you know how i feel in the thread "Does anyone here feel the same way as I do?" It's great that modmakers are fixing up CTP but I'm concern about what new players who don't have access to the internet are getting right out of the box... Activision is and will always be responsible for fixing up certain things.


Hexagonian>

I understand what you mean when you said that you needed a PHD in order to understand the tech. But my advice is... don't worry too much about it or the realism of it... part of the fun in sci fi is the imagination no matter how unrealistic it is. With each tech advancement or city improvement there is always a person talking... I usually listen closely to try and pick out the hidden message/moral. If you have seen any of the great sci fi movies or read any of the great scifi books you will notice that there is always a lesson to be learnt about humanity's progress.

[connorkimbro]

I read all your posts nordicus. . and i can't really disagree with even one of them. . there are alot of really really good things about ctp that civ 1 and 2 didn't have. but its just not fun for some reason. . i can't quite put my finger on it. . but i havn't been interested in a game of ctp in a long time. theres just something missing. the few annoying things about ctp are REALLY annoying. . so. . it doesn't get my vote. i do prefer smac over ctp, but there are a few things i don't like about it either. .

[Nordicus]

Monkey:
I see your point: CTP right out of the box, without any patches or additions, probably doesn't pull too far ahead (or at all) of Civ2. It is too bad that Activision seemed to have purposely made it customizable so that it wouldn't spend as much time and money on it (I think most things are conspiracies, so take that or leave it ), and it's too bad that people who don't have internet access can't take advantage of sites like this one and the stuff available through it (even though there are a godzillion free internet servers out there, if you don't mind giving up a few minor rights, and a new one seems to pop up somewhere every minute), but this seems to be the way it is. And it's not getting any better.

I can't think of any game I played where I didn't have to go to its web site (conspiracy!) at some point of another--take Aliens vs Predator: excellent game, fantastic, and if your system can deal with it and you have the card that can accelerate the graphics half-assedly, I'd say it's best game I've ever played, as far as action or 'role-playing' action/adventure or FPS titles go (what other game let's you become an alien, or colonial marine or Predator, in a FPS type scenario and hunt people--and eat them ?), but even with its patch, I can't say it's worth the price I paid, considering all the hassles, its greedy system requirements (RAM etc.), as well as freeing up system resources (oh don't me started--80% minimum, but I can go down to 59% with CTP and be fine), its swollen data on my hard drive (200 MB?!: ya right--took up 700 MB) and so on, plus the fact that I have to reinstall joystick software continually. I would recommend it to people only if they have a PIII 450 mhz (or an AMD equivalent), a Voodoo3 card or Diamond Viper 770 (or equal or better) with 32 bit functioning and at least 16MB, SoundBlaster Live (equal or better, or EAX support), 128 MB of RAM (and at least 80% free system resources), 17 inch .27mm dpi rez, a 16x (minimum) CD ROM drive, and a MS SideWinder Precision Pro (or Logitech Wingman) Joystick. If you have all that, go get it. Otherwise, don't bother, it won't be worth the money. I've been to its site more times than I'd like to admit, and tech support is pathetic, compared to CTP (and that's an apples/oranges comparison). I got bored with AvP and its hassles, and moved on to playing CTP, though I probably enjoy making stuff for it as much as playing it.

But CTP doesn't need any of that stuff (maybe the RAM, I think I think...). My point isn't comparing TBS and FPS or action/adventure games, that's silly, but it's that in 1999 you're very hard-pressed to get a new game that you can slip in and expect rays of heavenly sunshine.
If there is such a game, I'd like to hear about it.
I have more examples and I'm sure others have tons of examples of games and their intrinsic complications. As far as CTP goes, it's a snap (unless I screw up while messing around with files, then it's hell). I really wish computer games were like console games: ya stick it in, it works, it's good, you play. Nothing's that simple anymore, that's my point.
I think that you like this game but are (like many others, and I have to include myself in there, like you stated) getting sick of waiting for Activision or whoever to get its crap together. Maybe your beef is more with the company, at least that's the sense I'm getting. I may be wrong.

It seems that I might have been too quick to exclude SMAC from the Civ series, it sures sounds like Civ2, but that might be a good headline for a different thread:
"Is SMAC part of the CIV line?--why or why not?"


Anyway, I agree that it is Activision's responsiblity. I won't argue there.
And honestly, if there's a better game out that does as much (combining nation building with world conquering, et cetera), has the options, and the customization abilities, heck, I'll play the demo to check it out. But I've looked and there just isn't. So, while waiting for *place-company-name-here* to get the 1.3 patch out, or for CivIII to show itself, what can ya do? Hopefully, as more people realize this game's potential, they'll support it, which should justify Activision/Firaxis to do more (hey, well, a guy can always hope for such things). Maybe CTP is the lab rat before CivIII comes out, I don't know. Like I said, I hate getting into that sorta economical-political stuff.

Later


connorkimbro:
Oh well. That's too bad. Hey, maybe you might want to give it another chance when all these new mods come out, or better yet the 1.3 patch (whenever that is)?
So, you're a SMACer, too, huh? Is it a lot like Civ2? Should it be included in the Civ series?

[WesW]

To Nordicus: I would also like the violation of no tresspassing agreements to be just short of a declaration of war. If a civ refuses to leave when told, I would like to be able to attack them without lowering my rep. If you could do this, it would be a major improvement.

To Monkey: I stated in an earlier thread that at one point I had CTP boxed up and put in my closet, but I came here and found CD's mod. It greatly helped, and once I realized how extensively CTP could be modified, I realized we had an opportunity we had never had before: To build a strategy game almost from the ground up. Imo, the work that has been done *since* CD's mod has improved the game by leaps and bounds.

About SMAC: Look inside the AI cities- you'll see the same ineptitude that is in civ II. There is no co-ordination between the settlers and the cities, the improvements they build are stupid choices, a lot of their force disposition is the same way. If you could look at the source code for SMAC, I bet at least 90% at the AI routines are copied from civ ii. It's sad, because the effort put into the storyline, improvements, Planet and all that is very, very impressive. But you strip away the few added features, and it's just civ ii with new graphics, and the things from MOO2 I mentioned earlier. CTP out of the box wasn't any better, but it is now with the work the people here have done on it, and it just keeps getting better.
CTP's interface takes time to get used to, and could probably be improved, but a smooth interface don't mean beans if the AI is so incompetent it's insulting, and that's what civ II's became after I knew enough to evaluate it throughly.

------------------
Yeah, can you believe it. I got wiped out on chieftain. -Don Blevens (aka Scorpion59)

[Monkey]

Wow Nordicus! I'm surprised that Avp took that much resource for you to run. It runs beautiful on my comp and I only have a P2 233MHz with 128 Mb ram and a 4mb 3d accelerator. Only problem is that I have a riva 128 and AVP screws up the marine night vision and the predator's cloak.

CTP on the under hand is much more unstable on my system. The crashes are not as bad as some people have had but I've had a couple of crashes in mid game and a few annoying invalid save games which refused to load... grrrr... other than that if all goes well i have a pretty good time playing CTP...

WesW>

To build a strategy game almost from the ground up.

And that is the potential I'm hoping a lot more people can see.... Is modifying CTP's files hard? I've opened up a few of them but I'm too afraid to touch them ... maybe I'll give it a try after my exams.

[WesW]

Monkey, the text files aren't too hard. You just have to learn how they interact with each other- lines in one file are read by other files. It's much more complicated than civ II. Once you learn it, though, you realize that you can do much, much more with it than you could with civ II.
Strings can be frustrating- just ask Nordicus.
The slics confuse me- I'll leave them to TP.
I don't know much about the graphics, except that they are very time consuming if you want to do all the different types.
Probably the aips and flis are the most confusing, though. I think that's why nobody had done much with them except for CD. When I realized how important and neglected they were, I throughly studied CD's comments and picked up enough to start my own experiments. I have received a lot of help from people here, too. I think Nordicus went through the same thing when he came here- saw a defeciency that no one had adequately addressed, and set about improving it. In his case it was the diplomacy aspect. Actually, I think that is probably what all of us have done, from CD, to TP, Harlan, Slax, etc.
If you notice, most of the efforts going on now are collaborations. That's because the game is so big and complicated. If you want to put something nice together, one guy just can't hardly do it alone- there are too many disparate areas that you have to be good at.

[Utrecht]

Nordicus,

I have to agree with you, the mod's make the game playable and for some people very enjoyable. But that is the crux of CTP.

The customization is a HUGE bonus. The fact that it is necessary is an even bigger drawback. The fact that I have to make modifications of use other gamers mods to make the game playable is WRONG. My paychecks do NOT say Activision on them.

I do not know if you where on the forums when CTP was first released. Activision reps posted that they felt that the game was balanced (perhaps true) and realistic (blatently false)

They had (rather humerous) explanations on why phalanx can kill jets. ("The pilots got tired" any actual quote) and similary justification of the infamous tank vs. phalanx debate.

Now, the fact that many of the problems with CTP - AI, Diplomacy are finally being addressed 6 months after released is great, but in my mind TOTALLY unacceptable. So sure the game has come a long way, but it has been dedicated gamers not Activison doing that. Consequently, I will not give any more of my money or time to Activision.

This is not to say that there are some good ideas (2 primary - v level support and decent unconventional unit) that the boys at Firaxis should explore.