Medieval mod 2.2

[DiscoveryOne]

Yeah, at my last school I had a 13-year-old threaten to kill me (he had gang connections), and the school did nothing about it. I left there, and am working at a conservative, but safer, school district now. The job can suck at times, but the benefits rock.

Well, so as not to turn this thread into an off-topic one, I was wondering if you'd be interested in incorporating some ideas I had about religion, especially in the ancient and medieval periods. One thing that I liked about Civ II (don't shoot!; I prefer CTP overall!) was that although cumbersome, trade was handled more realistically, as was religion (or at least better than in CTP). I'd like to see CTP become more than just another turn-based military game. The military is important, but beliefs, the arts, and the non-applicable sciences also made us what we are. I like the non-military CTP units, and think that they should be expanded upon, but lack the skill, knowledge, and software to do so. Tell me if you're interested, and I'll send you a whole BUNCH of junk!



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"No, really! I used to be a Warrior!"

[WesW]

That's interesting, because I spent a couple of hours tonight surfing around, trying to trace a timeline of Medieval history. I also watched a History Channel program on sea tech, which gave me some ideas.

I am going to add Magnetism, after Ocean Faring, and probably move the Galleon and East India Co. to this advance.
Also, I want to add something for the re-birth of literature that began with the Canterbury Tales, placed after Philosophy. Anybody have a suggestion for the name of this advance?
I would like to put in something either before or after Perspective, dealing with construction. Ideas are welcome here, as well.
I think I may put in the Astrolade before Optics, and the Chronometer after Ocean Faring.

I have talked with Nordicus in the past about adding some advances to represent the Age of Enlightenment, in addtion to those I had planned to add for the Mod mod.

Anyone interested, look over that section of the Mod mod thread, and let me know what you think should be added, and why.

John, feel free to post any links you have to good sites, or specific pages here. I had trouble finding the articles that I know are there on Britannica's web site.

[ghen]

Here's an idea, with Communism create a wonder called Cold War. It makes every civ that doesn't have a heart for you insanely hate you. But the good side being that the AI can't start a war with you. Then using Communism and Quantum Physics, make a wonder called Self-destruct button. Use this when you can't possibly win the game but still hooked into playing 'til you die

[lago]

Wes: if you're describing something as a "re-birth," then how about Renaissance?

[WesW]

Today's update....

I have decided to take Tim's suggestion, and call this mod the Medieval mod 3.0, since I am putting in some new things, like the SLIC triggers and the re-organized aip build lists.

I would like to take a little poll as to what you think the title of the mod should be. Since most of the new advances and units are post-Medieval, I think the title (which will appear at the top of the Readme) should either be:
1)Medieval Mod 3.0- The Renaissance or
2)Medieval Mod 3.0- The Age of Discovery

Also, I have finished configuring Nordicus's Trade Goods mod. Much thanks to Chuck (ETB) for his help, especially for writing all the gl files. (When you get the mod, be sure to check those out.) Below is a chart detailing the terrains, their goods, and the values of both.

Sheet3
This chart lists the terrain and goods values that are used in the Medieval mod 3.0
Here is a link to ETB's website, which has the chart in the html format it will have in the mod. http://www.duesouth.net/~scbryan/ctp/mmtgv.html

..........................Good1..............Good 2.............. Base 
Terrain.................. Gd Tr Fd Pd Prob.. Gd Tr Fd Pd Prob.. Gd Fd Pd 
Grassland (Rice, Tobacco)  0  5  5  0 0.50   0  10  0  0 0.50..  0 15  5 
Swamp (Spice, Peat) .......0.10. 0. 0.0.50.. 0 ..5 .0 10 0.25.. .0 15..5 
Plains (Wheat,Cotton) .....5..5..0..0.50...0 .5 0 10..0.25 ..0 10 10 
Forest (Silk, Apple) ......0 10 .0 .5.0.25.. 0 ..5 .5 .0.0.50.. .5 .5 15 
Jungle (Tea, Banana) ......0 .5 .5 .0.0.50.. 0 ..5 10 .0.0.25.. .5 .5 15 
Desert (Date, Oil) ........0 .5.10 .0.0.50.. 0 ..5 .0.15 0.25.. .0 .0 10 
Hill (Coffee, Grapes) .....0 .5 .5..0.0.50.. 0.10 ..5 .0.0.25....5. .5. 15 
Brown Hill (Copper, Silver)0  5  0 10 0.50.. 15 5...0 .5 0.25...5. .0. 15 
White Hill(Sapphire,Emerald)5.15 0..0.0.25.. 5 .15 .0 .0.0.25.. 5 ..0 .15 
Mountain (Coal, Gold) .....0 ..5 0 15.0.50.. 0 .15 .0. 5 0.50...5 ..0 .20 
Brown Mtn (Diamond, Iron) .5 .15 0 .0 0.50.. 0...5 .0 15.0.50.. 5 ..0. 20 
White Mtn (Bauxite, Ruby) .0 ..5 0.15.0.50.. 5 .15 .0 .0.0.50...5 ..0..20 
Tundra (Caribou, Oil) .....0 .5 10 .5 0.25.. 0 ..5..0 15.0.25.. 0 ..0...5 
Glacier (Seal, Walrus) ....0 10..5 .5 0.25.. 0 .10 .5 .5 0.25...0...0 ..0 
                            
Beach (Crab, Fish) ........0 .5 10..0 0.25.. 0 ..5 .5..0 0.75.. 5..10...0 
Shallow Water(Pearl,Lobster)0 10.5 .0 0.50.. 0 ..5 10..0 0.50...5..10...5 
Shelf (Salmon, Oil) .......0..5 10..0 0.50.. 0 ..5..0 15.0.25...5..10 ..5 
Deep Water (Whale, Tuna) ..0 .5..5.10 0.25.. 0...5.10..0.0.50...5...5..10 
Water Volcano(Diamond,Crab)0.15 .0..5 0.25.. 0 ..5 10..0 0.50..10 ..0 .45 
Water Rift ...................................................5 ...5 ..25 
Water Trench .................................................5 ...5 ..10 
Space  ....................................................0 ...0 ...0

Last Updated on 3/5/00
By Wes

I am still looking for proposals on new advances, so be thinking about those.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 06, 2000).]

[ghen]

one vote for age of discovery.. How about a beanie baby factory, it raises happiness for a couple turns then does nothing?

[DiscoveryOne]

I'd probably add Magnetism before Ocean Faring, and I'd add Gravity after Physics. I'd probably also split Aerodynamics into Early and Advanced, and make Machine Tools a prerequisite to the former.

As to your rebirth of literature, how about Prose. I know that Chaucer was actually poetry, but much of the later stuff wasn't.

The construction/perspective thing could be called The Arch or The Flying Buttress...?

I am also for the idea of making the advance chart as complex as possible, without being silly. For example, Evolution requires knowing Domestication, Age of Reason, and possibly Ocean Faring. It would help slow the game down, as far as technology goes, and prevent discovering Evolution without ever figuring out how to tame a horse! It might be needed to tweak the number of turns to get it to balance well, though.

In the stuff I'll be sending to you soon, I also add Evolution, Agnosticism, and a host of religious and theocratic advances.

[TheBirdMan]

How about some advances from CIV II?

FEUDALISM
MONOTHIESM
MAPMAKING
STEAM_ENGINE

And a "new" one (substitution for Radio):

TELEGRAPH

[DiscoveryOne]

Been thinking about your "Arts advances". How about:

Drama (as in CTP standard)

Sculpture
Requires Drama and Stone Working
Leads to Engineering
Wonder: The Maoi of Easter Island

Prose
Requires Writing, Drama
Leads to Mass Media and Perspective

Perspective
Requires Prose and Geometry
Leads to Flying Buttress, Bohemian Movement, and Electrification

Flying Buttress
Requires Perspective and Engineering
Leads to something....(I don't have my stuff with me!)
Improvement: Cathedral

Bohemian Movement
Requires Agnosticism and Perspective
Leads to Abstraction

Abstraction
Requires Bohemian Movement
Leads to Quantum Mechanics and Rock Music

Rock Music
Requires Bohemian Movement, Pharmecuticals
Leads to something....
Wonder: The Woodstock Festival
(Doubles war discontent, but Pharmacies now add +3 happiness)



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"I do not pretend to know that which the less educated and less intelligent are certain of." -- T.H. Huxley

[ETB]

Hey Wes, pretty awesome work on the trade goods for your medieval mod! But your table is a little hard to read. How about just dropping in a pointer to http://www.duesouth.net/~scbryan/ctp/mmtgv.html for something that might be more readable for some folks like me with poor eyesight. I checked all the values on that web table against your table, so I think that they are right (I just used your spreadsheet to make it easy on me). I "caught" what you did with salmon and pearls! Anyway, just load the page on to your website if the values are correct and you want to use it. I'll take it off from my page and edit this message if you do take it.

Also, I have a few questions about the logic of a few of your values. Viola! Through the wonders of technology, your answers have magically appeared!

1) 15 food in a swamp seems high to me. If grassland is 15, swamp should be 5. I've spent a fair amount of time living next to a swamp - it would be tough to live in one!

Wes's Answer: I am using this mod as a continuation of my True Terrain mods. The readme to True Terrain 2 (found in the Med readmes folder) explains this.

2) Should diamonds have the same probability as Iron Ore? I would rather see Iron Ore up around 1 and diamonds around 0.2. Or, in other words, iron is 5 times as prevalent as diamonds.

Wes's Answer: I want the Mountain goods to all be powerful, to give people a tough choice about whether to go after them, even if the surrounding terrain really can't support a city. I created a random gigantic map, and didn't find a single diamond or ruby. I want the percentage high enough so that some of them are scattered around. There were lots of iron and bauxite.

3) Same for Bauxite and ruby. How about 1 for bauxite and .25 for ruby?

4) How about more caribou? Maybe set it at .5 or .75? The tundra is pretty inhospitable terrain, but there are (or used to be) a lot of caribou-type life on it!

Wes's Answer: I didn't want to waste very many goods tiles on the worst terrain, but when they did appear, I wanted them to be powerful, for similar reasons to the mountain goods.

5) Why do diamonds add 5 productivity to an undersea volcano?

Wes's Answer: Sharp eyes, there. By the time you can build undersea cities, I figured diamonds would be used commonly in industry, especially defense, so I figured to have a little fun, and put that in there.

OK, Q&A time is over. I hope this helps you as you finalize your trade goods values. At least it's some food for thought....

Chuck
[This message has been edited by ETB (edited March 08, 2000).]

[WesW]

OK, Chuck, since you tricked me into answering those questions in an email before I came here, I will leave it to you to edit them into the post above.

Ghen, the beanie baby wonder is hilarious!

Birdman (I might start calling *you* Woodstock!)
I added Chivalry and Theology to simulate Feudalism and Monotheism.
Mapmaking sounds good. I think I will try to get it in.
Steam Engine- already in for Mod mod, I am going to put it in here, as well.

John, according to the History Channel program I saw, Hull Making relates the Viking Longships, which reached Newfoundland.
Magnetism refers to Magellan and that era.

The Theory of Gravity came *after* Physics? I don't know, I am just asking.

Aero- already done for the Mod mod. I'll wait and see about how far along the timeline I want to go for this mod.

Sculpture and Drama sound good. How about another one called Scholasticism? Maybe we could put these around Philosophy, in the Medicine and Electricity lines.

Anyone know the history of Calculus? Seems like it should be in here somewhere.

I think I will add a Classical Music advance. As it is now, no one would ever know Bach or Beethoven existed.

There ought to be something to mark the contributions of Michelangelo and Di Vinci as well.

After this...well, you started getting a little wierd on me, John. The Woodstock wonder was very funny, though, and with appropriate effects to boot.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 06, 2000).]

[DiscoveryOne]

Scolasticism? Sounds kind of like Classical Education to me.

I agree about the music and arts stuff, although I think that individual artists should probably be wonders, not advances. (I was thinking of the Mona Lisa, myself.)
Opera, maybe? As to the math, I was thinking of Algebra as well, but don't know how they'd be used in game terms.

You're right about Magnetism; I meant that you need it before you can have Ocean Faring, and the Chinese had it long beforehand. Longships were before magnets.

Yeah, there was work being done in inertia, light, and other aspects of Physics before Newton and his Gravity.

Thanks! I was rather proud of the Woodstock wonder. I tend towards wonders that have some negative side effects. Keeps things interesting.



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"I do not pretend to know that which the less educated and less intelligent are certain of." -- T.H. Huxley

[WesW]

The mod keeps coming along.
Locutus sent me the finished SLIC triggers today, and those are now inserted into the mod.
I have re-adjusted the probabilities of the goods in that area, based upon some info I have received from ETB.
I have been corresponding with Pintello about advances and units, and I have decided to use Morgoth's Cog as a Columbus-era transport. We can then turn the Galleon into a fighting ship, ala the Spanish Armada.

I am not sure what I will put in next. I think I will add the new Wonders I had slated for the Mod mod first, then the new units, and finally the new advances. I want to put things in one at a time, and test them, so that I won't make the same mistake I did with the Mod mod.

I ran a short test today to see if the triggers and goods worked, and I could tell even from this that these additions are going to have huge effects on gameplay.
The garrison triggers free up large amounts of production for other things, and do it at the most valuable time- immediately after founding, since you usually have to build defensive units the first thing.
The goods, being both more numerous and more valuable than they were previously, add more production, and a lot of gold and science to the game.

The production should allow the AIs to fill out the unit build lists, hopefully resulting in the air and naval battles we would all like to see, plus it may allow the AIs to get to the special units like Marines and SAMs that I have never seen the ai build before, especially with the re-worked aips.
This production can also go to the new Wonders, and perhaps it will keep the ai from going into the max production mode so often, which kiils growth of its cities.

The new science should allow for the introduction of the new advances everyone keeps suggesting without bogging the game down.

To sum things up, the more I see of this mod, and how its different components are interacting, the more excited I am about it.

Once I check a few things tomorrow, I will post the mod, as it stands now, at my home page, available through the link at the top of this post. Then you can get it, and evaluate it for yourselves.

[TheBirdMan]

Woodstock to Snoopy:

I'll try (some of) my own suggestions now - based on your mods (course you are still one of the best).

My last gameplay (based on medieval mod) has to be ended. No-one will be winner due to the city-limit.

In my new game I have made following changes to your mod (not to mention my others changes, among others very low productions costs for sea, air and space units).

Listeningpost: See 0,3,4,5 and 6 (two tiles).
Radar, sonar and wormhole-probes: see 5 (I don't use the radar-facitity (don't know how to use it)).

All units "belong" to ancient ages are disbanned at democracy and "higher" governments. Simply disbanned - they should (I hope) disappear when not "wanted".

I will - whether y like it or not - keep y informed of the results......

HAPPY NEW YEAR.............. ehhhhh. Easter.....

[WesW]

See my next post below.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 09, 2000).]