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**Locutus** · January 15, 2000, 10:29

You're right, this is the longest non-OT post ever

I already responded to most of this in an earlier email, but I'd want to add to that by saying I like the reduced movement for modern units and elimination of alternate names.

Locutus

**John LeMaitre** · January 15, 2000, 14:31

Sounds wonderful! Man! Oh, Man!

Two things:
Change The Assembly Line to The Smithsonian Institution

Thanksgiving Day to The Steel Plow

As to the new Fascists...I didn't know vegetarians could be so tough.... LOL!

**Nordicus** · January 15, 2000, 16:44

Hey, Wes...

Well, it's shaping up nicely.

I agree with John about his choice for Thanksgiving.

I find it depressing to see so many Europe-America specific wonders--kind of like what John was saying about letting his class students go thru CTP's Great Library (it's a fun way to learn history, as well as about other cultures); and not just for kids--I mean, lots of grown adults as well. It just would be nice to see more of them from various cultures, IMHO.

(John, lol! Well, pumpkin seeds contains more protein than meat, pound for pound, so, them boys must eat a few buckets of seeds a day. Or maybe they eat Pumpkin O's for breakfast, with a side order of (Mussolini's Choice brand) fried tofu! No, wait, it's all blended in with other nutrients, so they just go to the local FascistWay Foods, and buy a few bags of Fascist Chow! )

6)Question: Why does the Space Bomber only have a movement of 2, and no missle carrying ability?

I dunno. That thing should sail like hell with no air-resistance--I'd change it to at least 8 (okay, 6, for you small map users ).
And I'd give it the ability to carry 10 missles (perhaps the makers wanted it to have it be a Peaceful 'bomber'...showering its enemies with flowers and big red heart-shaped pamphlets which say: "We luv U!").

The Pill. Oiy. *shaking head* Every time I see that I feel a rant coming, churning within like vehement cyclone of caustic profundity......?
But anyway

ADVANCE_ADV_MOBILE_WARFARE_HELP "Adv. Mobile Warfare"
ADVANCE_MICRO-ROBOTICS_HELP "Micro-robotics"
ADVANCE_MOLECULAR_COMPUTERS_HELP "Molecular Computers"

Now, is the Mobile Warfare one a typo? Just that it's different than the other two...

TVA? Never heard of it. What is it?

1)The values of units generally increase about 40 to 50 percent from one age to the next. Does this seem about right?

Yeah, sounds about right. O, that reminds me: have you considered at all the hp/fp increases? Do you know what the general increase is per age? I'd love to see it all raised per age, solve all this imbalance I've heard about (and seen a few times in CTP, although Civ2 had much worse military realism, IMO) ...but me no so with numbers. :P

That's all I can pick apart for now

Talk to you later--have some icons for later tonight as well.

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"I *may* have solved some of the problem with specialists tonight. Then again, I may have screwed things up- I don't know. If that happens, I won't know whether to laugh, cry, or both. God, I'm starting to sound like Nordicus (the horror!). "--Wes Whitaker, during AAIPs testing.
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited January 22, 2000).]

**WesW** · January 15, 2000, 23:59

I got the ole (1983) encyclopedia out, and read up on agriculture. It's quite interesting, really. According to World Book, the Ag. Rev. didn't start until the 1700's. The horse harness was developed about the time of CTP's Ag. Rev., which did greatly improve things.
In the 18th and 19th century, though, there were a whole bunch of things that happened. The mechanical planting drill, new crop rotations, new breeds of plants and livestock, the stell plow, the mechanical reaper and thresher.
The Homestead Act, which, together with the steel plow, led to settlement of the Great Plains. The Morrill Act led to the establishment of the land-grant colleges in the US, which have been responsible for many ag. advances in the last 150 yrs.

I really didn't see anything which seemed much greater than the others. I'm leaning towards the Homestead Act, since it seems to "sound" more like a Wonder.

I looked up the Smithsonian Ins., but really it just administers the museums. These are definitely a national treasure, but I don't think that they fit the Wonder's effect of increasing the effectiveness of specialists.
I am open to other suggestions, though.

Actually, I came up with the names for all the new Wonders out of my head one night, so if anyone has any suggestions, don't hesitate to throw them out. (I am proud of some of them, though. Extraterritoriality and the Trans-Atlantic Cable, for example, are rather obscure topics that fit the Wonders perfectly.) Getting a name that fits the Wonder appropriately is the trick.

Nordicus, you will have to look up TVA. It is part of Roosevelt's depression-era development and recovery programs. I live in the Tennessee River valley, and TVA, along with FDR's other programs, literally brought this region forward a 100 yrs. It got the region back to where it stood before the Civil War, wrt to rest of the country. (Which was still about 30yrs. behind the times, but anyway...)

Regearding the Pill, it did allow people to have a lot more sex. Whether this has led to an increase in peoples happiness is definitely open for debate. Remembering your post about contraception's long history, it helped me decide to go back to the original name. This is another place where I would be open to suggestions for a new name.

**John LeMaitre** · January 16, 2000, 02:43

WesW --

You're right; I like "The Homestead Act" better than "The Steel Plow"... It sounds more like a Wonder.

I think that you're also right about my suggestion of the Smithsonian... How about "Henry Ford's Factory"? (Again, because of the sound of it!)

Also, one little peeve of mine, which is really Activision's fault. "Chichen Itza" is a bad name, because a) it's a name of a city for the Maya civ and b) it's actually more of a Renaissance-aged thing. I suggest "The Pyramid of the Sun", which was built in Teotihuacan about 300 C.E.

Looks great!

**WesW** · January 17, 2000, 01:55

Well, I was thinking primarily of Ford when I came up with the Assembly Line, but the SLIC group is going to use that name for the modern version of Leonardo's Workshop that they are working on, so I will have to let them have that one.

I'm not sure that the Chichen Itza is enough of a problem to warrant changing the name. I'm afraid that few people will appreciate the improved historical accuracy (I doubt that few people now about Chichen Itza *or* the Temple of the Sun- I didn't.) And I'm changing *so much* already.
If someone comes up with a more famous name that fits the Wonder, I would consider changing it then, but right now you're giving people one more thing to learn for a relatively obscure reason.

**TheBirdMan** · January 17, 2000, 04:10

Hej Wes.

I-m currently playing your with your mods.

I think w're missing some changes in the advance.txt file.

As it is now, w're are using values 0-1-2-3-4 in the advance_age_index. But we have 6 ages! It should not be possible to investigate advances for the diamond age when the number of turns tells, that we should be i modern age (diffdb.txt) only advances for the genetic age (anyway, that's what I think)).

I'm not sure whether the game is using these values - so I made a try.

I have added a new age (Era of Great Migration) giving 7 ages. I have changed the values in the advance_age_index now using 0 to 6 (I have also changed the pre_req. for changing to next age to reflect this).

I can start the game now (tried this morning) will actual play a couple of test games later today (and the next days).

I'm not sure I have made myself clear to you - but I'm sure you'll know what I'm thinking of, if/when you're looking at it yourself.

**Pintello** · January 17, 2000, 19:15

Hi Wes,

Nice post. I especially like Solomon's Temple. I will probably go for that one most of the time. I think Homestead Act is a very good name for the "Thanksgiving Day" Wonder. It sounds more wondery. Is that a word?

How about Patent Office for the Wonder that is suppose to increase productivity? IMHO that was a very major invention that led to the ability to protect intellectual rights. I would not be suprise to find out that the protection of intellectual rights was one of the major motivators behind the development that took place during the Industrail Age and even modern times. Seems to me if a person is not afraid someone is going to steal their idea before they can get it going, a person is more willing to work with others and let others know about the idea so that it can better reach actualization.

Finally, I think everyone should have access to Mechanized Infantry, not just the Fascist. My Great Uncle fought in WW2 in a mechanized infantry division and he was not Fascist. He was American.

Regards,

Timothy Pintello

**WesW** · January 17, 2000, 23:38

That's a great idea, Tim!
I had forgotten about the patent office. I remember a story I heard about the- telegraph or telephone, I believe- where one inventor beat another inventor to the patent office by three hours.

Birdman, you'll need to send me the files you have altered so I can see what you have done.
Harlan added an age in his cities and leaders mod, where he put in new city sprites. I don't have any sprites to add, so the ages are mostly based upon the units available at the time.
The game announces the beginning of an age based upon the advances you have. Actually, I don't know how to set this, so if anyone does, please let me know.

The Medieval Age brings in the Samurai and Knights, the Ren. Age the gunpowder units, the Modern age the machine gunner.
The Modern mod will have the WWII units be the modern age units, and group the subsequent units more clearly into the Genetic and Diamond ages.

**WesW** · January 18, 2000, 03:09

I have fixed up the unit stats in the first post, so now you can tell what's going on there.

Nordicus, I have re-named Tank Warfare to Mobile Warfare (it makes more sense when you see the advances chart.)
Then I added the new advance Advanced Mobile Warfare, where the original Tank now becomes available.

Morgoth, the "H" in the stats line means Hunger, which is how support was defined in the units.txt, and maybe in the original units chart, which came with the game.
You know, you don't even need that anymore once you print out all my stuff. Not that it does you much good anymore, with the way I have changed everything.

**WesW** · January 21, 2000, 16:18

U.S. Sinister wrote in the Med mod Update thread- "I beleive spy satellite should accompany the advanced composites technology. I think it would be appropriate if the spy satellite came with the stealth bomber and the space plane. Space flight seems a little late as well. As you all know we have had spy satellites in service for a while now, but SDI is still a far off dream. Let me know what you guy's think."

Myself, I haven't looked at the Spy Sat very closely. I figured CD put it where it fit with the capabilities he gave it.
I *have* moved SDI back to the Superconductor, for just the reasons you mentioned.
In another post, you mentioned that the Missile Cruiser came too late. I have it coming in with Robotics, which is a present-day advance. The first priority with me when placing units is to have them separated in the timeline sufficiently so that each has an era of supremecy long enough to warrant building them. I mean, why build something that will become obsolete in a few turns?
Then you give it settings so that it fits in with the other units of that time. The "Missile Cruiser" in the game doesn't have to be the first one built; it can be a second or third generation type- whatever fits in with the era it occupies.

When putting together a mod, I make every effort at historical accuracy, but sometimes you can't have everything.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited January 22, 2000).]

**WesW** · January 22, 2000, 23:42

I have been talking with Myron Davis about different aspects of the mod. Some excerpts are below.

Myron's first letter:
Change the name of the Adv Carrier to a Nuclear Carrier.

If I remember right in world war two they had these real small carrier's, I don't remember the name of them but it went something like ironside or something like that, I saw one of the Civ2 ww2 scenarios had them in it, if you can think of it you might want to name them that (in civ2 they are a VERY early carrier and carried two units).

I think that the fascist should have a special unit, if only for historic sake (In Civ2 there was the fundmantalist and with the
fascist past the fundmentalists were turned into fascists) and I like if you have that government to have a special unit.

If you are interested here is a link which lists different types of ships:
http://baegis.ag.uidaho.edu/~myron/s...l_44Types.html

Changing the Phantom to a Space Frigate is a great idea I think, however I would like to have something replace the Phantom like a
Space Sub, I don't know if you have ever read Robert Heinleins, series about the tyrant, but they were a very crucial part in a war, they could fold light around them, they were VERY wear, but packed a huge punch being that they could come from nowhere and do terrible damage, ...anyway just a thought.

The spacebomber only has a movement of 2 because in space all movement is 1/10, which would mean that a spacebomber has a movement of 20. Not too bad...

Your idea's on wonders a great!

I love them!

Below is Myron's second letter, with some of my reply to his first letter:
> Naming the Adv. Carrier the Nuclear Carrier is a great idea. I don't know
> why it hadn't occurred to me earlier.

Also I remember what those small carriers were called flattops, the first carriers were called flattops, so if you are going to have two carriers maybe the real early ones would be called that. Flattops were mainly used with bi-planes and in that era. I believe there is a bi-plane in WW2 Mod.
>
> I am kind of split on the special fascist unit right now. I'll wait to see if I get any more opinions.

My friend Steve plays the fascist a LOT, and he LOVES being the fascist and building a LOT of fascist units, so my vote is to keep a special fascist unit
>
> I wish I had another space ship, so I could have both the frigate and the sub-type that you mentioned, but right now it looks like it's an either-or situation.
>
> I have given the space bomber a movement of ten, to fit in with the space fighter, and because it seems about right for both atmospheric and space flight. The way the space shuttle orbits the earth every few hours, I am sure these units will do the same.

I can see where you would increase the movement of the spacebomber, but the space bomber (I don't think) should have atmospheric flight, excpecially on HUGE maps it would make sense for the space bomber to move farther, but now the space bomber has a movement of 100. with a movement of 10.

My reply to the second letter:
Taking atmospheric flight away from the space units is interesting. I may put it up for opinions in the thread.

The Cruiser is another unit I will try to keep in mind. I will see how play-testing goes with all the units I have on slate now.

**WesW** · January 24, 2000, 01:17

Here are my proposed unit build queues for the Modern mod aips.

GROUND UNITS
// Defense_Troops_Primary (DEFENSIVE)
"UNIT_WARRIOR", 0.5;
"UNIT_HOPLITE", 1.2;
"UNIT_FYRDMAN", 1.5;
"UNIT_MUSKETEERS", 1.5;
"UNIT_RIFLEMEN", 1.5;
"UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER", 1.5;
"UNIT_PLASMATICA", 1.5;

// Ranged_Troops_Primary (ARTILLERY)
"UNIT_ARCHER", 0.5;
"UNIT_SIEGE_ENGINE", 0.6;
"UNIT_CANNON", 0.6;
"UNIT_ARTILLERY", 0.6;
"UNIT_WAR_WALKER", 0.6;
"UNIT_LEVIATHAN", 0.7;

// Assault_Troops_Primary (ASSAULT INFANTRY)
"UNIT_LEGION", 0.3;
"UNIT_SAMURAI", 0.3;
"UNIT_PIKEMEN", 0.3;
"UNIT_MECH_INF", 0.3;
"UNIT_ECO-ZEALOT", 0.3;
"UNIT_SPACE_MARINES", 0.3;

// Mounted_Assault_Troops_Core (MOUNTED ASSAULT)
"UNIT_JAVELIN_CAVALRY", 0.3;
"UNIT_KNIGHT", 0.3;
"UNIT_CAVALRY", 0.3;
"UNIT_ARMOR", 0.3;
"UNIT_TANK", 0.3;
"UNIT_HOVERTANK", 0.3;

// Mounted_Ranged_Troops_Core (MOUNTED RANGED)
"UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER", 0.3;
"UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER", 0.3;
"UNIT_CANNON", 0.3;
"UNIT_SELF-PROP_GUN", 0.3;
"UNIT_WAR_WALKER", 0.3;
"UNIT_LEVIATHAN", 0.3;

// Airborne_Troops_Core (AIRBORNE ASSAULT)
"UNIT_AIRBORNE", 0.2;
"UNIT_PARATROOPER", 0.2;
"UNIT_SWARM", 0.2;

// Amphibious_Troops_Core (AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT)
"UNIT_LEATHERNECKS", 0.2;
"UNIT_MARINES", 0.2;
"UNIT_SPACE_MARINES", 0.2;

// Air_Defender_Troops_Core (ANTI-AIRCRAFT)
"UNIT_HEAVY_AA_GUN", 0.2;
"UNIT_MOBILE_SAM", 0.2;

NAVAL UNITS
// Naval_Defense_Troops_Core
"UNIT_TRIREME", 0.2;
"UNIT_LONGSHIP", 0.2;
"UNIT_ARMORED_CRUISER", 0.25;
"UNIT_DESTROYER", 0.3;
"UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER", 0.3;

// Naval_Attack_Troops_Core
"UNIT_FIRE_GALLEY", 0.2;
"UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE", 0.25;
"UNIT_DREADNOUGHT", 0.25;
"UNIT_BATTLESHIP", 0.25;
"UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER", 0.25;

// Naval_Transport_Troops_Core
"UNIT_TRIREME", 0.2;
"UNIT_GALLEON", 0.2;
"UNIT_TROOP_SHIP", 0.2;
"UNIT_LIBERTY_SHIP", 0.2;
"UNIT_CRAWLER", 0.2;

// Carrier_Naval_Transport_Troops_Core
"UNIT_CARRIER", 0.1;
"UNIT_NUCLEAR_CARRIER", 0.1;

// Naval_Stealth_Troops_Core
"UNIT_U-BOAT", 0.2;
"UNIT_SUBMARINE", 0.2;
"UNIT_STEALTH_SUB", 0.2;

AIR UNITS
// Air_Defender_Troops_Primary
"UNIT_FIGHTER", .35;
"UNIT_INTERCEPTORS", .35;

// Air_Attack_Troops_Core
"UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER", 0.2;
"UNIT_HELICOPTER", 0.2;

// Air_Bomber_Troops_Core
"UNIT_BOMBER", 0.2;
"UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER", 0.2;

SPACE UNITS
// Space_Defense_Troops_Primary
"UNIT_PHANTOM", 0.3;

// Space_Assault_Troops_Primary
"UNIT_STAR_CRUISER", 0.25;

// Space_Defender_Troops_Primary
"UNIT_SPACE_FIGHTER", 0.35;

// Space_Bomber_Troops_Core
"UNIT_SPACE_BOMBER", 0.2;

**John LeMaitre** · January 25, 2000, 01:23

How's about the Stealth Fighter? Just asking....

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Modern Mod beta-edition

Modern Mod beta-edition

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